most complex toon-Rigg - inspiration

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  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by everfresh: i'm afraid we won't see that in r20, as character animation apparently isn't given a high PRIORITY at maxon
as you know i've built similar features like yours (not quite as slick though), and i just couldn't get rid of all the priority issues as of now. you fix it at one place, and then another conflict appears, with dozens of constraints and xpresso tags it's really hard to get those issues sorted properly. rigging in c4d would be way more fun if we wouldn't have to deal with that. nevertheless, keep doing what you're doing, you're very good at it, your work has been an inspiration to me!
Thanks everfresh
I think C4D should be able to complete this complicated rigging after completely avoiding the priority. He is not difficult, but it takes a lot of time to test (one month? two months? maybe more)
Most of my rig is made according to Maya's tutorial. You are very familiar with C4D's node system, bone constraints, etc. I think I can try to learn Maya's rig teaching. I think the logic is universal, but C4D must be considered. Priority issue! !
I still hope that C4D will be fully automated in the future.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
I have the feeling they are combining several rigs and meshes into a kind of "container" and switch between them seamlessly which is the master class shown here. There are several seperate meshes which they switch on and off and every one has its own rigging system. The joints, clusters, morphs and deformer etc. tools are the same we have in C4D but the smooth transition between the different mesh shapes is the most difficult part it seems. They must have several rigs combined that have a kind of feedback loop implented to read positions of the other rigs to blend them seamlessly. Truly great work but certainly not impossible in C4D. But I agree hierarchy would be a nightmare.

And there seems to be a whole team from two studios working on that stuff as stated in the credits. This is not as simple as "I have to learn Maya" to do it.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Respectfully, I must disagree that "Talent, time and evolution, has "nothing to do with software."

Clearly the Maya rig in question is the result of some highy advanced"Wizard Class" Maya riggers.

However the core features and scalabilty of the software used is a determing factor when such "Wizard Class" operators are choosing a package.

It becomes a question of Does this software offer the ability to acheive this or that objective in a straight forward,efficient manner for a busy pipeline.
or can this objective be achieved in this app with some really clever "workarounds" to see if it is technically possible.
IMHO ,With Character animation in C4D, too many things
( Lipsinc,Ragdoll physics ,mocap retargeting, Dynamic clothing) require solutions that are more in the category of clever "workarounds"
with some (such as Dynamic Clothing on a moving person)
,not worth the effort at all with the native tool set.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
The talented people at Meindbender are such an inspiration. Their pirate video made me sit up and take notice of Maxwell Render. The first time I saw it was at a distance and I thought it was stop motion for a second.

I love the rigging video. It makes me want to animate their character soooo bad. It really lights that fire of character animation again. So much work, but so rewarding.

 
  3 Weeks Ago
Maybe such complex character animation stuff could be more easy in C4D if we have some plugins for it. But it seems like there are not that much plugins out there especially for character animation.

This is what i miss in C4D:
- realistic skin deformation
- better muscle system (or the ability to just use own shapes which deforms the skin)
- Viewport Speedboost / Deformator Objects Speed up. Currently they are too slow to work with them :-(
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by travismetcalf: Very (very!) cool to see this rig in action!

I love the work from mindbender!

Great stuff. Love the eyes. Very Scrat / Tex Avery.
 
  2 Weeks Ago
However the core features and scalabilty of the software used is a determing factor when such "Wizard Class" operators are choosing a package.

It becomes a question of Does this software offer the ability to acheive this or that objective in a straight forward,efficient manner for a busy pipeline.
or can this objective be achieved in this app with some really clever "workarounds" to see if it is technically possible.
Disagree all you want, but as an experienced rigger in c4d, I dont see anything impossible to do in that rig. I also know how little default native maya rigs exist without a lit of custom expression, python and of course with rigging in any software, a lot clever mixing if tools in unintended usage ways.

I speak as someone who now is responsible for entire pipelines of large visual effects movies and sits in enough meetings where talented rigging TDs say something is difficult or cant be done that simply require a different thinking. They dont use a software because they chose it for its power or capabilities. They use it because the company decided to use the software for various different reasons. Artists at such studios dont get much say. Talented houdini fx artists go to MPC and may find they need to fo destruction in maya instead of houdini because NPC has an amazing simulation toolset in maya. Another studio an experienced maya cfx artist may find they need to use marvelous designer and carbon in houdini as it's better than ncloth.

Heck a good friend of mine who is a super talented rigging the with almost a decade of professional experience in large features, has had to rig in 3 softwares in his career, the current being SSI as Animal Logic still uses XSI for its Lego movies.

The point is, as Ceen said, if you got maya it wouldnt suddenly enable you to make such a rig. A knowledgable rigger in c4d would have a better chance of duplicating it in c4d than an inexperienced rigger jumping to maya.
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Quote: "Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen
 
  2 Weeks Ago
For many people XSI is still more advanced than Maya, XSI mailing list is full of complain from people that was forced to go to Maya where there is need to do code/script for many stuff. Also thing that work one way in one module and another way in another module.

Software quality is fundamental. unfortunately we seem to be still almost in XX Century regarding that. The only area that changed significantly for better is Render.
 
  2 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by LucentDreams: "but as an experienced rigger in c4d, I dont see anything impossible to do in that rig."



Never asserted it would be impossible in C4D Mate
merely suggesting that one consider that in an extreme example like this .
Would it be desirable.

Frankly that character, in that video could, be emulated
with a custom Daz Genesis figure rig in the right hands.

However the larger question becomes what could one do with this rig in Daz studio,
if I need to do a scene from "Dispicable Me" with hundreds of these critters scampering about.

Creating the rig and have being actually usable in your package are two entirely different matters ..yes ?.

C4D has Great rigging tools an even its muscle system is quite good IMHO.

until you start try to get realtime feedback in the viewport

until you need hundreds of characters for "The battle of the Bastards in "Game of Thrones".

until you try to make a Dialog heavy feature length animated film with alot of speaking characters

until you need Characters moving with long flowing gowns
etc etc.
Suddenly the core features of the software really begins to matter
even more so than your ability to cobble some super rig you saw in Maya.
 
  2 Weeks Ago
I'm speaking as someone who works as a supervisor on the types that of projects at the types of studios you are talking about. You may want to check my title/company when telling me how a sequence in Game Of Thrones was made.

Real time rigs? Unless you are talking about pixar or DreamWorks demos which aren't even in maya bust custom proprietary apps presto and promo. At a studio animating 6 giant robots I can assure you the tricks used to get a single rig to perform more than 5 fps is considered impressive. That is with advanced proprietary methods if rendering unpacked akembics before maya viewprt displays it. Rarely us an animator displaying and tweaking every character at once even with simplified proxy based rigs.

Muscles... look at Ziva, cloth... Marvelous and Carbon, hair... Yeti, lighting and Rendering, anything but Maya. Rigging and Animation is frankly one of the few areas left where maya is used and mostly because studios have a legacy of pipeline tools and a large user base of less technical users (compared to lighters and modelers) they have proprietary rigging toolsets and nothing else on the market offers something substantially better to justify a switch (unlike a brush or katana) Really Mayas hold in the big studios at this point isnt any sort of superiority and more down to the "if it ain't broke..." mindset.

I'm not saying C4D is a better option for big studios either. Theres more than enough pipeline issues with c4d to keep it out of most big studios, but trust me the rigging tools or ororitiy system even, arent the problem. Anyone that believes that Maya DAG diesnt encounter similar resolving loops, lags, delays etc hasnt used a complex Maya rig. My favorite us how often constraints that seem to work break motion blur so badly because of how they resolve.
__________________
Quote: "Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen
 
  2 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by LucentDreams:
I'm not saying C4D is a better option for big studios either. Theres more than enough pipeline issues with c4d to keep it out of most big studios,

I quoted the only relevant bit of your post regarding my original assertion that indeed the core capabilities of software actually matters
Cheers Mate.
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My name is Galactus,Devourer of Worlds;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
 
  2 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by ThreeDDude: I quoted the only relevant bit of your post regarding my original assertion that indeed the core capabilities of software actually matters
Cheers Mate.
Not really it sort of missed the point. No one here is in a big studio and Mindbender, the studio that made this isnt a big studio. C4D is more than appropriate and in my opinion somewhat superior for this level and scale of work.

Theres no similarity at all in the needs of a studio doing a 150-1000 shot vfx film and a studio doing a 5 minute short or commercial. The more structured the pipeline the more difficult smaller projects suddenly become. Theres a reason why studios like Dneg and MPC use different pipelines for tv/commercial than their vfx/feature anim, and why they do use a lot of c4d in their TV/commercial work.
__________________
Quote: "Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen
 
  2 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by LucentDreams:
Theres no similarity at all in the needs of a studio doing a 150-1000 shot vfx film and a studio doing a 5 minute short or commercial. The more structured the pipeline the more difficult smaller projects suddenly become. Theres a reason why studios like Dneg and MPC use different pipelines for tv/commercial than their vfx/feature anim, and why they do use a lot of c4d in their TV/commercial work.
This is absolutely correct.
I am a one man operation who will never realisticly do a 200 character battle sequence such as those featured in major films or TV shows like "Game of thrones".
However looking at the complete& impressive feature list of R20, its rather obvious where Maxon priorities remain,
Motion graphics ,Engineering, Arch Vis.
No worries there.

And the small and independant operators who are interested in Character based animated film work involving heavy lipsynched Dialog, Dynamic clothing ,retargeting of motion capture , have chosen wisely in moving to other solutions( Maya MOBU,Iclone, Ikinema etc.)
Despite C4D's actual rigging abilities.
__________________
My name is Galactus,Devourer of Worlds;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
 
  2 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by ThreeDDude: This is absolutely correct.
I am a one man operation who will never realisticly do a 200 character battle sequence such as those featured in major films or TV shows like "Game of thrones".
However looking at the complete& impressive feature list of R20, its rather obvious where Maxon priorities remain,
Motion graphics ,Engineering, Arch Vis.
No worries there.

And the small and independant operators who are interested in Character based animated film work involving heavy lipsynched Dialog, Dynamic clothing ,retargeting of motion capture , have chosen wisely in moving to other solutions( Maya MOBU,Iclone, Ikinema etc.)
Despite C4D's actual rigging abilities.
Yeah intresting this r20 release. Will you switch to Maya for character work?

Last edited by Frokito : 2 Weeks Ago at 06:46 PM.
 
  2 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by Frokito: Yeah intresting this r20 release. Will you switch to Maya for character work?
I am already using Reallusion Iclone Pro Pipeline
with the highly versatile Daz Genesis rigs .

Reallusion leased the Maya human IK tech from Autodesk
thus Making Iclone pro every bit a powerful as Motionbuilder for
Motion creation ,Characterization of imported rigs for one click retargeting
( with savable custom characterization profiles) and the ability to mix IK/FK on the fly.

Lipsynch from Audio with phoneme editing and replacement pallette and export to Alembic ,FBX&BVH.
Perpetual License ..No "Cloud" rubbish or MSA gambling.
__________________
My name is Galactus,Devourer of Worlds;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
 
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