R20 expectations?

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  3 Weeks Ago
Thanks

for reference: SIGGRAPH 2018 will be held 12-16 August, 2018
 
  3 Weeks Ago
I'd like more enhancements to the viewport. I love R19's hardware render and it's good enough for those tiny projects that need to be cranked out.†Visible lights and things to make it similar to Blender's evee engine would interest me greatly.

But I bet they will have their hands full transitioning the Mac version of C4d's viewport to metal in the next few releases.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by BubblegumDimension: But I bet they will have their hands full transitioning the Mac version of C4d's viewport to metal in the next few releases.
Considering the state of Apple's dedication to the professional Mac platform (or the absence thereof), I would not bet that this is a priority, or that the Mac version will be around much longer.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by Cairyn: Considering the state of Apple's dedication to the professional Mac platform (or the absence thereof), I would not bet that this is a priority, or that the Mac version will be around much longer.

I donít agree. OpenGL and CL may be deprecated but will survive in some form for a few years, during which time Maxon can port to Metal. Maxon is more friendly w/Apple than AutoDesk or theFoundry...and Mac is key to their business objectives.

Meanwhile with what Apple needs/wants to do in 3d with gaming, VR/AR...they need 3d content apps.

Quoting:
The company told developers at the conference that "existing and soon-to-be launched apps can still use it" and "this will remain so for some time," but nevertheless told developers that, ideally, "new projects should target Metal from their inception."
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Last edited by IceCaveMan : 3 Weeks Ago at 10:49 PM.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by Cairyn: or that the Mac version will be around much longer.

Maxon has gotten a ton of PR recently from Apple, and too many users love it - so I don't see them ditching Mac any time soon.†
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by LukeLetellier: Maxon has gotten a ton of PR recently from Apple, and too many users love it - so I don't see them ditching Mac any time soon.†
Doubtlessly, Mac is an important market for Maxon. Even though I remember several posts here that people are migrating to Windows because of Apple's lack of pro machines.

However, migrating to Metal just because Apple cuts the support for OpenGL (sooner or later) means a huge investment for Maxon that will "benefit" only the Mac users and may not really be visible to the end users (unless Metal is so incredibly better than OpenGL that everybody migrates back to Mac, but I doubt that).

For Maxon, this step comes at an inopportune time. More investments into hardly-visible infrastructure code? They just had invested in a new core - I may say, at the expense of many other areas of the application that haven't been updated in a long time. Now it would be the time to reap the benefits from this new core and refurbish stuff like weighting, rigging, hair, uv-mapping, etc. to close the gap to other applications.

Instead, Mac gets Metal? And the code branches into an OpenGL part and a Metal part to introduce more potential bugs and double the development time for any update in that area. And double the dependencies on third parties and drivers, too. Forever.

Maxon may depend too much on Apple to ditch it, but this "progress" doesn't go in the right direction.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
I am surprised no one has mentioned a "a make it pretty button".† it seems we have been waiting for that since R10?† lol

I agree with the spline issue, but generally C4D works great,† maybe better faster particles along the lines of X-Particles.
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  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by Rectro: Would be nice if they got Alsurface , and ALHair into Pro renderer along with making pro render faster and reliable all round with nodes of course, this would make me take notice of it.† If they could get pro renderer to compete with Arnold and Vray then that would give me reason to invest into a new GFX card. I agree, SSS in C4D native is lacking, and certainly not even close to any dedicated skin material in these two apps mentioned.

Dan

Haven't really paid ANY attention to prorender beyond testing out a few of the content browser files. If maxon wants †prorender to be adopted by more users,I'd think †there would need to be significant progress in this next release or at least ongoing development that users can have access to throughout the year in order to gain momentum. Octane RS and Arnold users see (or have seen in the past) significant developent with continuous updates with new features added and bug fixes along with pretty good communication between development team †and users (for the most part!).

I'd love for there to be a dependable, animation production-ready, FAST, feature-rich native GPU render engine in cinema, and would be happy if Prorender was that engine. Maybe maxon will suprrise us and pro render will be fully mature and ready for action with R20. That would be great. if not, then that would mean users probably wont see anything more from PR till 2019-or 2020, and who knows where things will be then.

I like the idea of making the Al shaders useable with prorender. Native VDB import/rendering would be nice too.

Last edited by JoelDubin : 3 Weeks Ago at 05:55 PM.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by Cairyn: Doubtlessly, Mac is an important market for Maxon. Even though I remember several posts here that people are migrating to Windows because of Apple's lack of pro machines.

However, migrating to Metal just because Apple cuts the support for OpenGL (sooner or later) means a huge investment for Maxon that will "benefit" only the Mac users and may not really be visible to the end users (unless Metal is so incredibly better than OpenGL that everybody migrates back to Mac, but I doubt that).

....

Maxon may depend too much on Apple to ditch it, but this "progress" doesn't go in the right direction.

Completely agree; I'm one of the many switching to Windows. But I also know that the some of the most vocal C4D community leaders and tutorial creators (GSG, etc) are OSX oriented, and would be extremely vocal about C4D leaving OSX, regardless of the reasons; and I'm sure Maxon doesn't want the negative press. As is the case with the entertainment industry and the modern political world: as long as you please the people with microphones, you're usually in the clear. Tick them off, and you're toast.†
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by JoelDubin: I'd love for there to be a dependable, animation production-ready, FAST, feature-rich native GPU render engine in cinema, and would be happy if Prorender was that engine. Maybe maxon will suprrise us and pro render will be fully mature and ready for action with R20. That would be great. if not, then that would mean users probably wont see anything more from PR till 2019-or 2020, and who knows where things will be then.


I Hope so too as I dont need another render engine, so if they are going to pull it off to contend with Arnold, Vray then it needs to be sooner than later as this could well be my last year of upgrades, I wont be playing the evolution half baked game that I did with Luxology days again, thats one of the reasons I moved over to C4D I need features production ready out of the box.

Dan
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  3 Weeks Ago
It's a little ridiculous to hold onto poorly aging technology (OGL) just to make it easier to maintain a platform agnostic platform. With a lowest common denominator approach, the end-users pay the price.† It will be some time before Apple ditches OGL completely, but they are right to try and push the technology forward, so that we all benefit.

As for the possibility of Maxon dropping Mac support, it doesn't seem viable at this point, and if it ever does happen it will be a sad a day.† I am fully invested in OSX because it is from top to bottom a better overall experience.† Making C4D Windows only would certainly suck some of the joy out of my work, for sure.† Some of the houses I work in are Windows-based, and while it gets the job done, it's more like using a clunky tool you buy for utility, and not for enjoyment.† Even in 2018, Windows feels 'low tech' and 'unpolished'.
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  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by Cairyn: Doubtlessly, Mac is an important market for Maxon. Even though I remember several posts here that people are migrating to Windows because of Apple's lack of pro machines.

However, migrating to Metal just because Apple cuts the support for OpenGL (sooner or later) means a huge investment for Maxon that will "benefit" only the Mac users and may not really be visible to the end users (unless Metal is so incredibly better than OpenGL that everybody migrates back to Mac, but I doubt that).
...

Maxon may depend too much on Apple to ditch it, but this "progress" doesn't go in the right direction.
I totally agree that this may lead to some near term pain for Maxon. And I'm sure it is frustrating, especially since Apple was largely responsible for the popularity of OpenGL ES as the 3D api of choice on mobile platforms.

But its also worth trying to understand why Apple is doing this. OGL is high-level, old, slow in some ways, and not extensible the ways Apple wants. Metal is not only a 3D graphics API, it is also a framework for complex heterogeneous compute. They have implemented convolutional neural networks and accelerated raytracing routines as "metal performance shaders", which are already yielding benefits in the availability of easy-to-implement machine learning models and rendering techniques. Octane is being ported to run as a metal performance shader.

Another factor: by creating their own low-level API, they can ensure that it runs on all Mac and iOS GPUs (e.g. GPUs from NVidia and AMD, and those Apple designs themselves).
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by GruvDOne: I am fully invested in OSX because it is from top to bottom a better overall experience.† Making C4D Windows only would certainly suck some of the joy out of my work, for sure.† Some of the houses I work in are Windows-based, and while it gets the job done, it's more like using a clunky tool you buy for utility, and not for enjoyment.† Even in 2018, Windows feels 'low tech' and 'unpolished'.
You forgot to add "in my personal experience and opinion".† My experience is the exact opposite: I find MacOSX cumbersome and quite frustratingly clicky to work with. Many things that used to work really well in MacOSX earlier versions are now a trainwreck (iTunes is but one example). Sierra was the first OS that had me screaming my frustration out loud since Windows ME. I am pretty platform agnostic, and don't really care what OS I work on: but since Apple decided to reverse the mouse scroll direction it's been a frustrating experience for me.

But this is of course all personal subjective experience. From a more rational point of view, the trouble with the current Apple lineup is simply that the hardware isn't very suitable for 3d work and that components are no longer user-serviceable, and terribly unsustainable from an environmental perspective. The latest Mac book Pros' design are disastrous for a productive workflow (keyboard, trackpad). Apple keeps changing socket standards. And the list goes on. Maintaining a Mac platform for 3d work in the long run is a very expensive proposition as well compared.

A Windows and Linux desktop/tower machine is light-years ahead in regards to these considerations (or even a Hackintosh).†

But these points have been discussed to death.

As far as R20 goes: I expect the worst, and hope for the best. Maxon's yearly release business model is looking old in the teeth. Other 3d platforms have had many ProRender updates for free, and Maxon users are forced to wait a year to (hopefully) get a usable proprietary† implementation.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by hvanderwegen: ...Maxon's yearly release business model is looking old in the teeth. Other 3d platforms have had many ProRender updates for free, and Maxon users are forced to wait a year to (hopefully) get a usable proprietary† implementation.
^^^this!
When MSA was introduced I always assumed it would mean more smaller, frequent updates, rather than just one large yearly update. †What the point of paying for a year's "service agreement" when all it basically does is give you that one yearly update?? - just call it what it is!

Me - I just want a smooth production workflow integration w/ UE4... †but I guess that's not Maxon's responsibility (aside from UV's, Displacement, etc).
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by hvanderwegen: My experience is the exact opposite: I find MacOSX cumbersome and quite frustratingly clicky to work with. Many things that used to work really well in MacOSX earlier versions are now a trainwreck (iTunes is but one example). Sierra was the first OS that had me screaming my frustration out loud since Windows ME. I am pretty platform agnostic, and don't really care what OS I work on: but since Apple decided to reverse the mouse scroll direction it's been a frustrating experience for me.

But this is of course all personal subjective experience. From a more rational point of view, the trouble with the current Apple lineup is simply that the hardware isn't very suitable for 3d work and that components are no longer user-serviceable, and terribly unsustainable from an environmental perspective. The latest Mac book Pros' design are disastrous for a productive workflow (keyboard, trackpad). Apple keeps changing socket standards. And the list goes on. Maintaining a Mac platform for 3d work in the long run is a very expensive proposition as well compared.



Scroll direction can be flipped in OS preferences. Yes, ITunes sucks and agree on some other criticisms. Still think Mac OS is better overall. For 3d: Windows.
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