Greyscalegorilla reduced the prices of renewals

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  12 December 2015
no, it's per 10 machines a year!
 
  12 December 2015
"Per year" was the issue I had. Just one year licensing...one year support. Anyway...I got dragged back into this discussion, regrettably.
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  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by Horganovski: If John Smith is a professional user then he's already budgeted for this, plus he's writing off a good chunk of the upgrade cost against his taxes, it is a business expense after all. Plus he probably pays for the MSA in one, maybe two days pay tops unless he's working for almost nothing.

I maintain subscription licenses for both C4D and Maya and I pay more for my electricity bill each year than I do for both of those combined.


Seriously, there's a lot of panic here over something very minor in the scheme of things. If you don't like the terms of a particular plugin developer/software vendor they are not holding a gun to your head.. just use the old version or something else.

It's kind of sad sometimes (not just on this forum, I see it on many others) that a negative thread like this gets a lot more attention than most of the others. Seems to be some weird way things get skewed on the internet, or maybe it's a bad part of human nature that people can't help dwelling on the bad side of things..

Cheers,
Brian


As ever Brian you bring a smidgen of sense to a nonsensical jumble of hysteria.

Seeing professionals nickel and diming over such paltry sums is frankly laughable. If you can't budget $30-100 each year for products that are essential to your workflow (and more importantly living), choose other products or get a new job. I really would like to say more on the matter but 4 pages of comments on such nonsense...
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by jonmoore2: As ever Brian you bring a smidgen of sense to a nonsensical jumble of hysteria.

Seeing professionals nickel and diming over such paltry sums is frankly laughable. If you can't budget $30-100 each year for products that are essential to your workflow (and more importantly living), choose other products or get a new job. I really would like to say more on the matter but 4 pages of comments on such nonsense...


Where are you getting that number?!
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  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by IceCaveMan: Where are you getting that number?!


Craig, I'm with you in your fight against Adobe. But I also believe the likes of GSG and Paul Everett deserve to make a living if they continue to support each years update cycles. It's not even a matter of innovation, support itself costs money.

It's a free market. If you don't believe your getting value don't renew.
 
  12 December 2015
Greyscale

Support is exactly where this bugs me - when I bought the plugs, I was not aware (and had no reason to believe) that support was going to run out at any point. Now it appears that it will. Greyscale should separate updates, which I am willing to pay for, and grandfather in support, which was initially offered with no limits before the new policy came into effect.
That would be my suggestion (or else start a users forum - the "Support Center" is just a few FAQs)

Originally Posted by Blinny: Let me parse this and hopefully kill the debate at the same time. This thread is turning into something that's not warranted at this point. I wasn't sure at first what the deal was and was skeptical but it's pretty clear this whole thing boils down to poorly chosen marketing language. I have revised my stance based on the facts but apparently some don't like to budge from their original stance.


Strike-throughs and emphases are mine.




Translated: these are not maintenance plans, they're upgrade fees with support terms built into them. This isn't "if you pay $29 before [arbitrary date], you get the next upgraded version at no cost, but if you don't pay $29 before [arbitrary date], your upgrade cost will be $59." Which is what MAXON does. Pay for MSA within 364 days of the last time you bought it and you get the next version of C4D for $650. Don't pay MSA and the Upgrade will cost you over $1000 when that version arrives. Wait another year and the upgrade cost doubles. That's the part many people dislike (intensely). And rightly so.




Translation: You get the same price, which is $29 for everything except the HDRI kit, which is $79. So what that means is for everything that's $29, if they upgrade to include new UI / features / performance, it's a good deal. For HDRI there's a higher standard to be met to make it "worthwhile" for some people. Just adding more presets probably won't cut it based on people's reactions here.





What's different here is the support aspect, which is what I was asking about and no one had an answer. My suspicion was correct. The support DOES seem to run out after 12 months from the date you either a) originally purchased, or b) purchased what they're calling a renewal.

So the following scenario is possible and likely for many people:

Already purchased a license more than 12 months ago. Support has now run out based on the new policy. The cost to get support again tomorrow is $29, for all but one product.

IF you purchase a "renewal" (see also: upgrade) for $29 tomorrow, and a new version of the product arrives in exactly 11 months, you get that product immediately and at no additional charge. However what's not clear from their site is, you probably also only get 1 additional month of support for that brand new product... because you paid for the support 11 months ago.

If you didn't pay the $29, you still own what you own (without support) and then on the day the upgraded version is released, you can pay that $29 and get the new version and 12 months of support with it. So to me that is the most logical thing to do, because whenever you buy an upgrade, you're guaranteed 1 year of support with the new product. The variable here is support, not the cost of upgrades or the eligibility to buy the next version at the current "renewal cost".


The support aspect is sort of a bummer, but way less important than the licensing cost and the timing rules of the licensing IMO. Which are both very good for all of those $29 options. If they don't upgrade LightKit Pro for 2 years and I pay nothing in the interim, I still have full functionality of my existing LightKit Pro but no support. But, when the next version of LightKit Pro comes out in 2 years, I can still pay $29, get the brand new version's functionality and a year of support from that date. I'm not paying twice as much to get it because I waited (like MAXON's setup) or stuck like Adobe where my license doesn't work because I stopped paying 2 years ago.

Overall it's not bad IMO. The only people who should be a little bummed about this, are people who use the support all the time. Even then, if you can't pay them $29 for regular support requests over the course of a year, you're in the wrong business.
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by jonmoore2: Craig, I'm with you in your fight against Adobe. But I also believe the likes of GSG and Paul Everett deserve to make a living if they continue to support each years update cycles. It's not even a matter of innovation, support itself costs money.

It's a free market. If you don't believe your getting value don't renew.



I agree with you on all points here. And that's why I have always been in favor of two revenue streams for existing plugins:
1. Upgrade the plugin with new features that are sold as v. 2, v. 3, etc.
2. For plugins that don''t really change but may require a new serial number, etc...a modest handling fee (5-15$)

I could say more but I'll refrain at this point.
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  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by dennishmiller: when I bought the plugs, I was not aware (and had no reason to believe) that support was going to run out at any point. Now it appears that it will.


Why would GSG support not run out? I think from a legal standpoint they are only obliged to support their goods for a year.

the entire industry is changing. "Unlimited" is a promise no serious enterprise can keep today.


Paul

Last edited by tapaul : 12 December 2015 at 01:39 PM.
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by tapaul: Why would GSG support not run out? I think from a legal standpoint they are only obliged to support their goods for a year.

In europe it is even less. If not sold as part of the package the only support that you are required to be given is for installation. This is usually different for subscriptions (MSA, SAAS, ...).
Warranty is something different from support again though.
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  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by Srek: In europe it is even less. If not sold as part of the package the only support that you are required to be given is for installation. This is usually different for subscriptions (MSA, SAAS, ...).
Warranty is something different from support again though.


You are of course right, in that there is no legal obligation to provide any support, for any software product, after sale or after install. We are only obliged to ensure that the product we sell is fit for use, for a limited period of time. IMO, even a 30 day free support policy is generous. Giving a year, is very generous. Many in this community need to understand that support costs time and energy, and that "unlimited" means someone else pays for their support.

Paul

Last edited by tapaul : 12 December 2015 at 02:11 PM.
 
  12 December 2015
I have no problem with any support policy that is clearly stated at the time of purchase. What I don't care for is a change of policy that occurs after the product has been sold, which I believe is happening here.

Originally Posted by tapaul: You are of course right, in that there is no legal obligation to provide any support, for any software product, after sale or after install. We are only obliged to ensure that the product we sell is fit for use, for a limited period of time. IMO, even a 30 day free support policy is generous. Giving a year, is very generous. Many in this community need to understand that support costs time and energy, and that "unlimited" means someone else pays for their support.

Paul
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by dennishmiller: I have no problem with any support policy that is clearly stated at the time of purchase. What I don't care for is a change of policy that occurs after the product has been sold, which I believe is happening here.


if GSG explicitly stated that they would give you free support/updates for an indefinite period of time(or similar), then that is a bit of a problem(scam). I still think that even if they wrote this(which i cant imagine they would have?), they are within their rights to change their terms of service/use, at any time.Its tricky of they promise this and want to pull it back. The only way out of that would be to rename and relaunch a product.(cut the line)
However, your view goes to strengthen how important it is that any vendor/developer be very clear, and explicit about this. And be clear that they can not, and will not, offer indefinite /never ending support /service, for products.
I've been doing this for many years, and took a lot of heat over my limited support policy(lots of haters), in the past.. What your seeing here from GSG, is, IMO the reality on the matter. That nobody, no matter how big or popular they are, can seriously offer indefinite "anything", and that this community should come to terms with this.

I strongly advise anyone selling anything, to give some thought to how they expect to support / service whatever they make in the future, and to calculate their prices with that in mind.

Paul

Last edited by tapaul : 12 December 2015 at 07:04 PM.
 
  12 December 2015
Gss

"I strongly advise anyone selling anything, to give some thought to how they expect to support / service whatever they make in the future, and to calculate their prices with that in mind."

Words of wisdom - get it right the first time (if at all possible)
 
  12 December 2015
GSG plugins are expensive and not adding much to workflow. Topcoat can speed up things up a bit but once you have made few basic r16 shaders you can modify them and you don´t need any plugins for that. Bit of scam to new users
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  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by Horganovski: Plus he probably pays for the MSA in one, maybe two days pay tops unless he's working for almost nothing.



That's a huge, wild assumption. Some of us are non-hobbyist users, but who work in partially/entirely non-commercial environments and we don't get paid per project. We build our toolset carefully, slowly, rationing out plugin purchases and upgrades on a per-case basis with what little resources we have available - under this model, we lose big.
 
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