Greyscalegorilla reduced the prices of renewals

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  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by kvb: The update price on City Kit is fine. $29 equates to 20% of the plugin price. That's a very reasonable update/upgrade cost. However, $79 for the HDRI collection?!? That's 80% of the original product price. That is far from reasonable. I'd be pissed being charged 80% for an upgrade with new features, let alone for just updating my support so I can get a new download link or what-have-you.

-kvb


Check your math. $29 is only 37% of $79, not 80%. Sure, still more than a 20% upgrade fee, but not nearly as high as you originally posted.

But I agree 100% on the render client licenses. My C4D Studio license is what should govern how many clients (unlimited) I can render on, and in my opinion, plugins should just conform to the user's application license.

Terry
 
  12 December 2015
Nothing wrong with my math... since CityKit is $149 The $79 is in relation to the GSG HDRI Collection (a $99 product).

-kvb
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  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by nibeck: It seems like the best of both worlds for users and GSG.

- Users do NOT have to pay each year
- You only pay the upgrade fee when you want to upgrade


If that's true and if the upgrade fee is a fixed $29 (whenever time comes to update, not annually or for some pre-defined time where there is a "special" going on to encourage people to sign on), then that's a great deal.

If GSG updates my kits to include better performance or additional functionality (beyond presets) and they provide support with it and it only costs $29 each time I want to upgrade, that's an excellent deal.

I think the real problem here was the way it was communicated. This is just a standard upgrade fee by the sounds of it, except that you can pay it ahead of time IF YOU WANT TO. If you don't want to, you're not penalized (unlike MSA).

That sounds good to me.
 
  12 December 2015
The picture here is nothing short of gruesome, appalling, disgusting and utterly unacceptable.

1. Despite what posters said above, the latest from the GSG site is that your support only lasts one year whenever you repurchase something. You want to ride on their train? You get slammed now...and forever more. You will repurchase and repurchase and repurchase. Because you can be sure that at some point all their products will be tied to a c4d key, which changes annually, or will conveniently break periodically with new Maxon c4d releases. So when they speak of owning and using the software forever...it is with a massive catch. You'd ultimately have to open old versions of c4d to access.

2. The renewal prices are outrageous. $29-$79 for what could easily constitute only one year of usage (assuming you are upgrading c4d with new license each year) This mammoth price buys me what? New HDRI, textures, and presets? Uh...ok. I can find plenty of that free online...or shoot my own custom HDRI spherical panos.

I think I have understated just how awful this is and what a horrible precedent it is.
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Last edited by IceCaveMan : 12 December 2015 at 02:30 AM.
 
  12 December 2015
There seems to be some confusion in this thread. Many seem to be talking about these new terms as if they were the original ones everyone was complaining about. They are not, night and day actually. IMO, the new terms are fair.
 
  12 December 2015
The use of the word "renewal" as GSG is using it (Buying something you have already purchased) reminds me a bit of the Sci-Fi movie Logan's Run.

In that movie when you reached the age of 30 you were "up for renewal"

What did that mean exactly?
You got zapped to death.
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  12 December 2015
Maxon might want to have a chat with its vendors, before the platform gets pushed over an unexpected tipping point. Let me explain.

Migrating from one version to the next can be tremendously time consuming, and of course Maxon's MSA isn't exactly cheap.

But if you combine the reality that plugins often break from one version to the next or require a new serial number or license file....then stack on the notion some vendors now have of short-duration licensing...this all looks like a formula that could create a threshold where many customers opt to bail out on upgrading their MSA...

Consider this scenario:
-A user, John Smith, over time has accumulated $1,600 worth of plugins that are licensed and working on R17.
-If John upgrades to R18, he will have to pay $500 for the MSA...AND(!) $700 for repurchase fees for plugins. (without purchasing new support the plugins won't have the required licenses or will be incompatible)
-John doesn't have $1,200 to spend...

John thinks to himself: I'll just keep the c4d setup I have and take my $500 over to the Foundry...or for Blender training.
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  12 December 2015
If John Smith is a professional user then he's already budgeted for this, plus he's writing off a good chunk of the upgrade cost against his taxes, it is a business expense after all. Plus he probably pays for the MSA in one, maybe two days pay tops unless he's working for almost nothing.

I maintain subscription licenses for both C4D and Maya and I pay more for my electricity bill each year than I do for both of those combined.


Seriously, there's a lot of panic here over something very minor in the scheme of things. If you don't like the terms of a particular plugin developer/software vendor they are not holding a gun to your head.. just use the old version or something else.

It's kind of sad sometimes (not just on this forum, I see it on many others) that a negative thread like this gets a lot more attention than most of the others. Seems to be some weird way things get skewed on the internet, or maybe it's a bad part of human nature that people can't help dwelling on the bad side of things..

Cheers,
Brian
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by Horganovski: If John Smith is a professional user then he's already budgeted for this, plus he's writing off a good chunk of the upgrade cost against his taxes, it is a business expense after all. Plus he probably pays for the MSA in one, maybe two days pay tops unless he's working for almost nothing.



Seriously, there's a lot of panic here over something very minor in the scheme of things. If you don't like the terms of a particular plugin developer/software vendor they are not holding a gun to your head.. just use the old version or something else.

It's kind of sad sometimes (not just on this forum, I see it on many others) that a negative thread like this gets a lot more attention than most of the others. Seems to be some weird way things get skewed on the internet, or maybe it's a bad part of human nature that people can't help dwelling on the bad side of things..

Cheers,
Brian




I've spent way more time posting about UV mapping lately than on this...and we're having a blast.

I've finished sharing my view on this. I feel passionate about consumer issues and this hit a nerve for me...as did the Adobe cloud. But I'm done...and I'm out.
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C4D R19 Studio, MODO 902, VRAY, Octane, Cycles. PC/Mac.
 
  12 December 2015
Let me parse this and hopefully kill the debate at the same time. This thread is turning into something that's not warranted at this point. I wasn't sure at first what the deal was and was skeptical but it's pretty clear this whole thing boils down to poorly chosen marketing language. I have revised my stance based on the facts but apparently some don't like to budge from their original stance.


Strike-throughs and emphases are mine.


Quote: First, we changed the [strike]update prices[/strike] price of upgrades for all of our plugins. They are listed below.


Translated: these are not maintenance plans, they're upgrade fees with support terms built into them. This isn't "if you pay $29 before [arbitrary date], you get the next upgraded version at no cost, but if you don't pay $29 before [arbitrary date], your upgrade cost will be $59." Which is what MAXON does. Pay for MSA within 364 days of the last time you bought it and you get the next version of C4D for $650. Don't pay MSA and the Upgrade will cost you over $1000 when that version arrives. Wait another year and the upgrade cost doubles. That's the part many people dislike (intensely). And rightly so.


Quote: Second, you can renew your license at any time to get another year of downloads and customer support. Feel free to wait and see if future versions of our software are right for your workflow and you will still get the renewal price.


Translation: You get the same price, which is $29 for everything except the HDRI kit, which is $79. So what that means is for everything that's $29, if they upgrade to include new UI / features / performance, it's a good deal. For HDRI there's a higher standard to be met to make it "worthwhile" for some people. Just adding more presets probably won't cut it based on people's reactions here.


Quote: New [strike]Renewal[/strike] Plugin Upgrade Prices

Light Kit Pro ... $29 per license
HDRI Studio Pack ... $39 per license
Greyscalegorilla HDRI Collection ... $79 per license
Texture Kit Pro ... $29 per license
Signal ... $29 per license
Transform ... $59 per license
City Kit ... $29 per licnese
Topcoat ... $29 per license



What's different here is the support aspect, which is what I was asking about and no one had an answer. My suspicion was correct. The support DOES seem to run out after 12 months from the date you either a) originally purchased, or b) purchased what they're calling a renewal.

So the following scenario is possible and likely for many people:

Already purchased a license more than 12 months ago. Support has now run out based on the new policy. The cost to get support again tomorrow is $29, for all but one product.

IF you purchase a "renewal" (see also: upgrade) for $29 tomorrow, and a new version of the product arrives in exactly 11 months, you get that product immediately and at no additional charge. However what's not clear from their site is, you probably also only get 1 additional month of support for that brand new product... because you paid for the support 11 months ago.

If you didn't pay the $29, you still own what you own (without support) and then on the day the upgraded version is released, you can pay that $29 and get the new version and 12 months of support with it. So to me that is the most logical thing to do, because whenever you buy an upgrade, you're guaranteed 1 year of support with the new product. The variable here is support, not the cost of upgrades or the eligibility to buy the next version at the current "renewal cost".


The support aspect is sort of a bummer, but way less important than the licensing cost and the timing rules of the licensing IMO. Which are both very good for all of those $29 options. If they don't upgrade LightKit Pro for 2 years and I pay nothing in the interim, I still have full functionality of my existing LightKit Pro but no support. But, when the next version of LightKit Pro comes out in 2 years, I can still pay $29, get the brand new version's functionality and a year of support from that date. I'm not paying twice as much to get it because I waited (like MAXON's setup) or stuck like Adobe where my license doesn't work because I stopped paying 2 years ago.

Overall it's not bad IMO. The only people who should be a little bummed about this, are people who use the support all the time. Even then, if you can't pay them $29 for regular support requests over the course of a year, you're in the wrong business.

Last edited by Blinny : 12 December 2015 at 04:40 AM.
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by Blinny: Let me parse this and hopefully kill the debate at the same time. This thread is turning into something that's not warranted at this point. I wasn't sure at first what the deal was and was skeptical but it's pretty clear this whole thing boils down to poorly chosen marketing language. I have revised my stance based on the facts but apparently some don't like to budge from their original stance.


Strike-throughs and emphases are mine.




Translated: these are not maintenance plans, they're upgrade fees with support terms built into them. This isn't "if you pay $29 before [arbitrary date], you get the next upgraded version at no cost, but if you don't pay $29 before [arbitrary date], your upgrade cost will be $59." Which is what MAXON does. Pay for MSA within 364 days of the last time you bought it and you get the next version of C4D for $650. Don't pay MSA and the Upgrade will cost you over $1000 when that version arrives. Wait another year and the upgrade cost doubles. That's the part many people dislike (intensely). And rightly so.




Translation: You get the same price, which is $29 for everything except the HDRI kit, which is $79. So what that means is for everything that's $29, if they upgrade to include new UI / features / performance, it's a good deal. For HDRI there's a higher standard to be met to make it "worthwhile" for some people. Just adding more presets probably won't cut it based on people's reactions here.





What's different here is the support aspect, which is what I was asking about and no one had an answer. My suspicion was correct. The support DOES seem to run out after 12 months from the date you either a) originally purchased, or b) purchased what they're calling a renewal.

So the following scenario is possible and likely for many people:

Already purchased a license more than 12 months ago. Support has now run out based on the new policy. The cost to get support again tomorrow is $29, for all but one product.

IF you purchase a "renewal" (see also: upgrade) for $29 tomorrow, and a new version of the product arrives in exactly 11 months, you get that product immediately and at no additional charge. However what's not clear from their site is, you probably also only get 1 additional month of support for that brand new product... because you paid for the support 11 months ago.

If you didn't pay the $29, you still own what you own (without support) and then on the day the upgraded version is released, you can pay that $29 and get the new version and 12 months of support with it. So to me that is the most logical thing to do, because whenever you buy an upgrade, you're guaranteed 1 year of support with the new product. The variable here is support, not the cost of upgrades or the eligibility to buy the next version at the current "renewal cost".


The support aspect is sort of a bummer, but way less important than the licensing cost and the timing rules of the licensing IMO. Which are both very good for all of those $29 options. If they don't upgrade LightKit Pro for 2 years and I pay nothing in the interim, I still have full functionality of my existing LightKit Pro but no support. But, when the next version of LightKit Pro comes out in 2 years, I can still pay $29, get the brand new version's functionality and a year of support from that date. I'm not paying twice as much to get it because I waited (like MAXON's setup) or stuck like Adobe where my license doesn't work because I stopped paying 2 years ago.

Overall it's not bad IMO. The only people who should be a little bummed about this, are people who use the support all the time. Even then, if you can't pay them $29 for regular support requests over the course of a year, you're in the wrong business.


I would only offer 2 points of contention here:

1. There are actually 3 products, not 1, that don't have a $29 renewal price tag: HDRI Collection ($79), Transform ($59) and Studio Pack ($39). HDRI Collection pricing is horrible, Tranform pricing is a bit too high, Studio Pack I'm fine with being $39.

2. You completely missed the TR nodes portion. They just need to strip that out completely. Biggest slap in the face that isn't being talked about (besides myself) for some strange reason.

Besides the $79 upgrade for HDRI Collection, a slightly lower price on Transform and the TR nodes insult, I'm totally fine with this.

-kvb
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LOBODESTROYO!!!
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by Horganovski: . . . .
It's kind of sad sometimes (not just on this forum, I see it on many others) that a negative thread like this gets a lot more attention than most of the others. Seems to be some weird way things get skewed on the internet, or maybe it's a bad part of human nature that people can't help dwelling on the bad side of things..

Cheers,
Brian


it wasn't my intent by cross-posting this for it to be negative, it was meant to be "hey GSG listened to their users" but oh well.
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  12 December 2015
GSG's new policy is super generous and fair.

I was taken aback by the previous policy change and complained (perhaps too bitterly) about it.

But GSG listened and changed their policy and they should be applauded for that.

I plan to continue to support them.

P.S. A LOT of the above discussion does not seem to indicate an understanding of the new policy.
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by lancemoody: GSG's new policy is super generous and fair.

I was taken aback by the previous policy change and complained (perhaps too bitterly) about it.

But GSG listened and changed their policy and they should be applauded for that.

I plan to continue to support them.

P.S. A LOT of the above discussion does not seem to indicate an understanding of the new policy.


I agree. I will continue support too, but when I received the original email I was knocked backwards.
 
  12 December 2015
Quote: P.S. A LOT of the above discussion does not seem to indicate an understanding of the new policy.



No I understood the policy perfectly well.

Per year this is the expected outlay:

Light Kit Pro ... $29 per license
HDRI Studio Pack ... $39 per license
Greyscalegorilla HDRI Collection ... $79 per license
Texture Kit Pro ... $29 per license
Signal ... $29 per license
Transform ... $59 per license
City Kit ... $29 per licnese
Topcoat ... $29 per license

Maybe that works for some. It doesn't work at all for me.
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Last edited by IceCaveMan : 12 December 2015 at 03:01 PM.
 
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