Greyscalegorilla reduced the prices of renewals

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  12 December 2015
Buy nothing! Pay now!
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by vel0city: Buy nothing! Pay now!


That's it in a nutshell. Capitalism perverted.
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  12 December 2015
Chris and Nick have given a lot to the community and I won't ever forget that.

My guess is that the two of them have a lot of smaller rigs and setups and ideas that could sell for $4.99 or $9.99 and at such a price could achieve a lot of sales. That could hold them over until their bigger projects--or some upgrades-- are completed.

If they took some of Chris's expresso rigs and wrapped it with a couple of tutorials they could quickly generate a salable product. Especially with the visibility they have in place.

I sure wish they would do that over this current course of action.

I find what have done this week offensive. But I'm not going to overlook the good they've done in the past.

They are good guys who just lost their way a bit with this decision. I'm still rooting for a recovery from this.
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  12 December 2015
Just to throw in a bit of balance into this topic, here's an excerpt from GSG blog on the new policy (http://greyscalegorilla.com/2015/12/we-are-listening/):

Quote: Is Anything Else Included Other Than Updates and Customer Support?

Yes. You will also be able to download extra content related to your plugin. New HDRIs, New Textures, New Transform Presets, ETC.
Also, all renewed licenses will also add the ability to use our software on up to 10 team render nodes.
We will be sure to provide as much value as possible for our customers. We want this to be a “no brainer” when it comes time to renew next year.


So to be fair, it's not exactly paying for nothing. I can understand asking questions and seeking clarification, but why all the hate?
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  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by mustardseed: Just to throw in a bit of balance into this topic, here's an excerpt from GSG blog on the new policy (http://greyscalegorilla.com/2015/12/we-are-listening/):



So to be fair, it's not exactly paying for nothing. I can understand asking questions and seeking clarification, but why all the hate?



I think you could see in my post above that I have ANYTHING but hate for these guys. I'm rooting for them. And rooting for them to do the right thing.

But this is still wildly amiss.

Asking people to pay years *in advance* for unspecified, unquantified, unknown items? That's absurd.

In another post Chris Schmidt hypothesized them upgrading of City Kit in 2 years. That tells you everything. They haven't even *started to think* about how they might upgrade the product. Yet they want me to send them my money for it?

Maybe that's cool if the world was kickstarter. The world isn't kickstarter.

In truth they would get booed off the pages of kickstarter because they haven't even articulated any meaningful and specific upgrade features!
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Last edited by IceCaveMan : 12 December 2015 at 03:18 AM.
 
  12 December 2015
Craig, I think you can see from my post above that I was not replying to your post. Please chill.
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"...if you have faith as small as a mustard seed... Nothing will be impossible for you."
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by mustardseed: Craig, I think you can see from my post above that I was not replying to your post. Please chill.


One of my jobs on this planet is customer advocacy. If you wait for me to chill...you'll be waiting for me to die. At that point...I'll go quite cold.
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Last edited by IceCaveMan : 12 December 2015 at 03:43 PM.
 
  12 December 2015
OK so help a brother out here.

Let's say you own Light Kit Pro, Texture Kit, and now you have a copy of Topcoat you got for free (I think).

Then the "Everything is $29 to renew" announcement.

Then Chris and others are saying "you own everything, then later when we update your plugin, you can pay $29 to get the new version".

So it's not a maintenance fee the way MSA is, where if you don't buy MSA the price goes way up if you want that specific version that just came out. Intead it's a $29 upgrade fee. Like, as in old-school software upgrades. You paid $500 for X. A year later X 2.0 came out. The cost to new users is $500. The cost to upgrade is $199. Except here it's $29. That's what it sounds like. Chris seems to be saying you do NOT have to pay that $29 today, you can pay it the day after the next version is released and it still holds. Right?

My other question was, let's say you bought a plugin more than a year ago, and you don't pay $29 tomorrow. And the next version, it comes out a year from now. Do you still benefit from GSG email support (for example) if you have questions about that plugin between now and a year from now?

If all it is, is a $29 upgrade fee and it's not time-sensitive, that's a very reasonable price for any major upgrade to any of their products (which it sounds like the plan is to make them all proper plugins and add features —*perhaps one at a time). If it's "you have to pay $29 before ____ date, or you don't get the next upgrade when it comes out" that's a problem.

Last edited by Blinny : 12 December 2015 at 04:55 AM.
 
  12 December 2015
icecaveman, this isn't $29 this year, $29 next year etc. in hopes GSG will improve a product, as I understand it, if you own a GSG product and "IF" you want updates/support NOW you can, if you don't you can wait until the next version comes out and "IF" it has something which appeals to you then you can pay the $29 and update. This isn't a yearly MSA, it is a pay if you want to now or wait and pay the update price later if the update has something you want.
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  12 December 2015
Im terribly confused at the folks that are in anyway upset about this upgrade program. It seems like the best of both worlds for users and GSG.

- Users do NOT have to pay each year
- You only pay the upgrade fee when you want to upgrade

This keeps the users year-to-year costs down (possibly $0 if no changes have been made), and it also encourages GSG to update the products to entice people to pay the upgrade fee.

Another way to think about it is that it's kind of like the Patreon funding model. The upgrade fees give users the option to continue to provide revenue to GSG in order to support thier efforts, even if the products aren't upraded.

Seems incredibly rational to me.
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by nibeck: Im terribly confused at the folks that are in anyway upset about this upgrade program. It seems like the best of both worlds for users and GSG.

- Users do NOT have to pay each year
- You only pay the upgrade fee when you want to upgrade

This keeps the users year-to-year costs down (possibly $0 if no changes have been made), and it also encourages GSG to update the products to entice people to pay the upgrade fee.

Another way to think about it is that it's kind of like the Patreon funding model. The upgrade fees give users the option to continue to provide revenue to GSG in order to support thier efforts, even if the products aren't upraded.

Seems incredibly rational to me.



The Patreon model was great...for the pope and aristocrats and the artists who were their benefactors. That's where the model came from and the context in which it made sense.

The application of the Patreon model in this instance is more than bizarre since WE ARE THE ARTISTS and GSG is a tool-maker.

If you want to apply the Patreon model... GSG should be fronting us money, not the other way around.
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  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by IceCaveMan: If you want to apply the Patreon model... GSG should be fronting us money, not the other way around.


Now this is completely ridiculous. GSG is not receiving your art in the end, nor demanding any services from you. No matter whose job is labeled "artist" here, the relationship is still the other way round.
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by Cairyn: Now this is completely ridiculous. GSG is not receiving your art in the end, nor demanding any services from you. No matter whose job is labeled "artist" here, the relationship is still the other way round.


My whole point was to convey how out of place the Patreon model is to this discussion! It's injection into the discussion was misguided, IMO.

It's unfortunate that many in the younger generation are all too eager to assume a thrall position in our economy. Very sad development. That is the essence of many subscription models and with prepay. With these approaches the customer yields all control (along with his pocketbook!).

I will add that ultimately it seems an unhealthy business that gets itself in a situation where it is collecting money before a product is even conceived and work started!
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Last edited by IceCaveMan : 12 December 2015 at 05:20 PM.
 
  12 December 2015
OK, take Patreon out of it, I still think it's a good model. More so then most other software models. IMHO. YMMV.
 
  12 December 2015
Originally Posted by nibeck: Im terribly confused at the folks that are in anyway upset about this upgrade program. It seems like the best of both worlds for users and GSG.

- Users do NOT have to pay each year
- You only pay the upgrade fee when you want to upgrade

This keeps the users year-to-year costs down (possibly $0 if no changes have been made), and it also encourages GSG to update the products to entice people to pay the upgrade fee.

Another way to think about it is that it's kind of like the Patreon funding model. The upgrade fees give users the option to continue to provide revenue to GSG in order to support thier efforts, even if the products aren't upraded.

Seems incredibly rational to me.


I can kind of understand being a little upset at some details of new licensing/support scheme, but to get all bent out of shape over it in general is just ridiculous. Its seems as though some are drawing conclusions with no info to back it up. Where does it say you have to pay the update cost every year? Nowhere, that's where. Where's the evidence that GSG has hit hard times and this is some kind of last ditch effort to stay afloat? Yeah, I haven't seen any evidence of that either. But we live in a headline world now, content and details mean nothing anymore it seems. What ever happened to digging deeper before drawing conclusions?

The update price on City Kit is fine. $29 equates to 20% of the plugin price. That's a very reasonable update/upgrade cost. However, $79 for the HDRI collection?!? That's 80% of the original product price. That is far from reasonable. I'd be pissed being charged 80% for an upgrade with new features, let alone for just updating my support so I can get a new download link or what-have-you.

Another reasonable gripe is the TR licenses scheme. Don't limit the number of nodes and don't make it reliant on my support license being current. Don't punish me for having a render node heavy hardware setup. That's a sure fire way to guarantee that I won't be a customer of yours. The dynamic in computing in the cg world has changed. It's no longer about cramming as much power into a single machine as possible anymore. We're focusing on workstations that are efficient in daily tasks (higher single core clock speed) and letting our secondary machines give us the rendering power (more cores). However many TR nodes my c4d license affords me is how many my purchased plugins should let me use without a fee. It is not smart for a third party developer to limit the functionality of MY c4d license. If the limitation is only on paper, I'll ignore it and install anyway. If there's actual code locking it off, I will be taking advantage of that 60-day money back guarantee.

I know this whole "service contract" thing is new to the c4d community. We've been spoiled by our plugin developers for years with free support regardless of how long ago we paid for a product. I dabbled in the plugin game for a while and let me tell you, it's a bit disconcerting spending time on support when no money is coming in, so I can totally understand where developers are coming from when it comes to support fees.

We should just be thankful that GSG isn't playing this fast and loose and with an attitude; which, so far, is the only template the c4d community has for paid commercial plugin support (yes, I'm referring to how Paul handles his support).

I would just ask that GSG look at the prices of their plugins and keep the update costs to around 20% - 30% of retail. That puts it in the same ranges as Maxon's MSA and X-Particles upgrades (18% and about 35%, respectively).

-kvb
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