Why use C4D in a MAX / Maya world?

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  10 October 2015
Originally Posted by NWoolridge: C4D performs very well with small numbers of high-poly objects compared to those other programs; where it falls down is with large numbers of objects....

So, the issue is not with the speed of C4D's viewport, per se, but with its object handing, and how that interacts with the display code.


Both of these things are true and I should've been more specific. The way I look at it is, the object handling is an integral part of the viewport. If the object handling allows great performance for half of the scenarios and poor performance for the other half we still have (in effect) a viewport problem.

I was making sure though, that something crazy hadn't happened in recent weeks to change that high object count barrier. These things become very important in any type of particle system previewing, etc. Hopefully MAXON has been hard at work on improving this condition for R18.

FWIW anyone seen improvements in C4D performance under El Capitan, especially on 2013 Mac Pro? I know one bloke was saying earlier he's having good luck but not sure if that was 10.11 or just generally. I believe there have been some recent updates to Apple's drivers or the like but Apple being Apple nobody ever knows what the hell is going on because they don't tell anyone.
 
  10 October 2015
Speaking more generally, there are definitely some quirks in how C4D calculates the scene in my experience.

I was working on a shot today with an animated character rig in it and some baked animation and the scene was running at 15fps (not great but not that unusual in Cinema).

I wanted a simple way of adding a frame counter to the scene though for hardware previews (can't seem to find a way of rendering the HUD in those? ) so I created a default MoText object and added an Xpresso tag to it, dragged the MoText into the tag and hooked it up to a Time node, with the Frame output driving the Text property of it.
That worked fine for a make-shift frame counter that would show in hardware previews but the scene fps dropped from 15 to 8. I deleted the MoText object and it went back to 15.

I notice even in an empty scene this will seriously impact the FPS, and it's not the MoText object, it's the Xpresso node, as soon as I delete that or disconnect it from the MoText object the scene speeds up again. So it seems just asking C4D to give you the frame number as each frame updates takes a lot of processing.

Very strange. If I create the same kind of setup in Maya (BonusTools PolyDigits node connected to the Time node directly or driven by an expression which should be closer to the C4D setup) there's no appreciable change in the scene FPS in either case.

Cheers,
Brian

Last edited by Horganovski : 10 October 2015 at 04:20 AM.
 
  10 October 2015
The advice I would give to the college students would be find the studios that you want to work at and see what software they use and learn it. You'll be much more employable if you are familiar with the software. If you want to work in feature film would take the time to learn Maya, then Max. If you are going into games I would learn Max, and then Maya. If you are going into broadcast I would stear a student toward C4D without a doubt, AE and VizRT.

Max and Maya both have advantages in a team environment. This is due to Autodesk being a much larger company and working closely with vendors for years. Their software is far from perfect, but there is a reason large studios choose it. It's there hub, content platform, everything runs thur it. When they hit a wall they just write a tool and climb over it. Large studios have full time dedicated developers ready to build tools on top of Maya and Max.

Maya has strengths in

Character Animation
Referencing
Scene Assemblies
Large data sets
Fluids
nCloth
Modeling
Scripting
Texture Baking
Shotgun Integration
Viewport 2.0
GPU accelerated rigs

Cinema has advantage working in a smaller context. Things tend to work right out of the box with minimal effort. Its very stable, and a great tool for the solo artist or small group of freelancers. This makes it easy to work fast and on short deadlines. If you need to pump out show opens or Network ID's, its your go to. This is why Cinema is so popular in broadcast, it more about speed then quality. The goal is always quality, but time is always the limiting factor. In the Cinema world everything seems like a one off. It's not really designed for shot based production where you have a living database of shots that are tracked and assets are published, and updated in the scene.

Cinema has strengths in

Spline modeling
Integration with AE
Overall Ease of use
Procedural setups
Lots of deformers
Growing list of 3rd party render engines and VFX plug-ins
Good built in renderer

At the end of the day tell your students what do you want to do? What do you want to work on? Who do you want to work for? That should help them pick the best route to take.
 
  10 October 2015
Originally Posted by IMPICHMENT: Cinema 4D is a big problem in scenes with lots of objects.
A view can be optimized and to show him a small number of clones. But when it comes to rendering, you will understand that this software is not suitable for the really serious work - VFX, architecture, etc.
Maxon many years ignoring the requests of users. It is increasingly affect their income - because Modo, Blender, 3D Max, Maya are able to render billions.

http://itmages.ru/image/view/3144621/93fb9c3b


You should not put Modo and 3D Max into compare. They suck much more with HighPolycounts and ObjectCounts (at least 3D MAx with objectcounts....modo sucks with high Polycounts.). C4D is pretty good at rendering Renderinstanzes. I rendered these Frames here in under 3 Minutes with GI and Physical Render with a usage of 1,5 GB RAM. Each Red Car is made of 340.000 Polygons. The Distance Cars are made of 13.000 Polys.
https://vimeo.com/129077145
__________________
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Cinema 4D Studio MSA, Zbrush, CS6, 3DCoat, Moi
Twitter: @holgerbiebrach
www.c4dStuff.com

HB_ModellingBundle

Last edited by HolgerBiebrach : 10 October 2015 at 07:51 AM.
 
  10 October 2015
The minute any one of these apps can handle 13 characters at 500k each and 4 characters at 64 million each in a 230 million poly environment you w8ll have something worth arguing about. Otherwise your arguing about whose less behind and mediocre when it comes to viewports.
__________________
Quote: "Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen
 
  10 October 2015
That's all relative though and most of us aren't doing work like that.

For me running 4 medium/low res characters in the same shot with open subdiv smoothing enabled, live AO and AA in the view and still getting 40-50 fps in the viewport while animating makes for a pretty decent working experience.

Animating 1 character, with a similar level of detail to the 4 above but a much simpler rig, no smoothing enabled and all of the settings as low as I can crank them (textures switched off even) and still only getting 15 fps maximum is a lot less pleasant. It means far more previewing just to check timing for one thing. Even manipulating keys in the curve editor feels sluggish in a scene like that.

Both of those are actual jobs I've done recently, the former was in Maya 2016, the latter C4D R16.

Cheers,
Brian

Last edited by Horganovski : 10 October 2015 at 11:37 PM.
 
  10 October 2015
Originally Posted by Horganovski: Animating 1 character, with a similar level of detail to the 4 above but a much simpler rig, no smoothing enabled and all of the settings as low as I can crank them (textures switched off even) and still only getting 15 fps maximum is a lot less pleasant. It means far more previewing just to check timing for one thing. Even manipulating keys in the curve editor feels sluggish in a scene like that.

Both of those are actual jobs I've done recently, the former was in Maya 2016, the latter C4D R16.

Cheers,
Brian


C4D must just hate you then cause that's some bs; I get over 60 fps on simple characters with the advanced biped rig (plus custom additions for facial animation.) Always using refs flawlessly which you haven't been able to work with. It's a mystery really.
 
  10 October 2015
Originally Posted by muckymouse: C4D must just hate you then ...


LOL, I think you may have a point. I was animating in a shot tonight where with every preview render I'd make the scene would take longer and longer to Prepare before each hardware render would start. Up to the point where the final one which was 61 frames took 7 minutes until I force quit the machine (couldn't even get out to the task manager, had to power down.)

I'm also seeing that other issue mentioned here recently where on closing C4D it will hang my machine for 30-40 seconds until it finally closes (I can see it still active in the task manager).

For most of 2014 I did rigging work almost exclusively in C4D with all of the animation work in Maya and all of those jobs seemed to go smoothly, for this year it's been half and half with rigging and animation in both and it seems C4D is bearing me a grudge for spending too much time with the new girl

I'm hoping on the next project I'll get to switch to R17 and will get an easier time of it there, I've never found R15 or 16 seem to run particularly well on my machine (I find the same thing with Maya 2015, 2014 and 2016 both run better).

Cheers,
Brian
 
  10 October 2015
Originally Posted by Horganovski: LOL, I think you may have a point. I was animating in a shot tonight where with every preview render I'd make the scene would take longer and longer to Prepare before each hardware render would start. Up to the point where the final one which was 61 frames took 7 minutes until I force quit the machine (couldn't even get out to the task manager, had to power down.)

I'm also seeing that other issue mentioned here recently where on closing C4D it will hang my machine for 30-40 seconds until it finally closes (I can see it still active in the task manager).

For most of 2014 I did rigging work almost exclusively in C4D with all of the animation work in Maya and all of those jobs seemed to go smoothly, for this year it's been half and half with rigging and animation in both and it seems C4D is bearing me a grudge for spending too much time with the new girl

I'm hoping on the next project I'll get to switch to R17 and will get an easier time of it there, I've never found R15 or 16 seem to run particularly well on my machine (I find the same thing with Maya 2015, 2014 and 2016 both run better).

Cheers,
Brian


Bleh that sounds like a gross bug to deal with when you're trying to animate.

Just some fact checking my own comment (I wrote it on the train) - I actually only get a little above 30 fps in the stuff I worked on last so don't feel too bad with your 15 fps; I guess I never checked as it feels pretty buttery to me at that frame rate. Just for fun I animated a solo sphere and checked the framerate: 60 fps. That's not great haha. Oh well anything above 24 is fine with me.
 
  10 October 2015
Out of curiousity I tried the same file in R17 (the studio asked me to stick to R16) and it's about 3-4 fps faster on average which is a little better. Indeed 24 fps is great really as you spend less time previewing, even if it's not a totally accurate impression of the timing it's often close enough. Any more than that and it just makes things feel snappier when scrubbing/flipping keys and editing curves etc.

One thing I notice in the file I have here (it's really long, almost 1400 frames) is that different sections of it will play back slower and faster, it seems the more keys there are the more it bogs down, which makes sense I guess. An empty scene always feels fast until you start animating in it. I read that was improved in R17 but I'm not seeing a huge difference with the file I have here.

One thing I did though that's seemed to squeeze a few more FPS out is to take any deformer in the scene that's absolutely not essential and put it on a layer and turn off everything for that layer. What's weird though is that those were off in any case (with the red x in the OM) but putting them in a layer seemed to make them 'more off'.. strange, but I'll take it!

Cheers,
Brian
 
  10 October 2015
Do either of you guys use XP3 in R16 or R17 on OS X? If so, what kind of frame rates do you get when working with high particle count presets (unaltered)? Try that ink in water one. I've seen other people who have trouble with those types. For me C4D chokes hard whenever I start running high particle counts. Like nowhere near 15 FPS. More like 3 fps. Doesn't matter if I lower detail settings or muck around with memory settings or modify the emitter settings. The 2013 MP has a really hard time with it, seemingly under 10.11 too (whatever new drivers may exist now maybe none, don't know). I gather each emitted particle is an "object" technically but maybe not. It would make sense given the known limitations of the app.
 
  10 October 2015
I specialize in character animation work, so I'm always either animating or rigging, I've never used particles, native or plugins so can't say, sorry.

Windows 7 here BTW.

Cheers,
Brian
 
  10 October 2015
Originally Posted by sirio: Funny thing is that was yesterday on a Max forum and users were complaining about how slow the viewport is when using a few thousand objects...
And C4d is not able to do archiviz??? can you show us some scenes that can be done in Max and not in C4d please? I'm curious.



The surface of 5x5 km.
One tree - 1 million polygons.
5 million instances of this tree.
3,805,590M- Polygons
Used 10.5 GB
Scene parsing - 1,29sec seconds.
Try to render so many polygons in C4D and your computer will burn.
http://maxkagirov.com/scr/1BTISCK.jpg

Last edited by IMPICHMENT : 10 October 2015 at 10:36 PM.
 
  10 October 2015
Originally Posted by Horganovski: I wanted a simple way of adding a frame counter to the scene though for hardware previews (can't seem to find a way of rendering the HUD in those? ) so I created a default MoText object and added an Xpresso tag to it, dragged the MoText into the tag and hooked it up to a Time node, with the Frame output driving the Text property of it.
That worked fine for a make-shift frame counter that would show in hardware previews but the scene fps dropped from 15 to 8. I deleted the MoText object and it went back to 15.


In your render options you should have Render HUD - on the HUD elements you should right click and render should be selected.

Also you have feed pretty much anything into a watermark text element with xpresso - add strings together with time node etc.

I'm slowly getting into a bit of character work and was recently excited when I tested out my cinebench scores and my 5 year old macbook pro came up rubbish. So that means my next computer will be X times faster. I'm curious Brian, as to what your cinebench score is.
I don't doubt that Maya blows it out of the water, just keen to see how much more powerful you pc is than mine if you're banging your head against a wall in c4d. Cheers.
 
  10 October 2015
^ Thanks, but I only get the Render HUD option when using the standard or physical renderer as far as I can see, and I need it in hardware/software previews as I can't render each time I want to check animation timing, I'm looking for a simple Open GL render like a Playblast in Maya (which can do HUD etc). Am I missing a setting or does C4D not include the HUD in Hardware/Software render mode?

[EDIT - ah now I get it, you have to switch to Standard mode, then enable HUD rendering in the Options, then switch back to Hardware mode (which will cause those Options to disappear) and then the HUD will render in Hardware mode too.
Hey Maxon - that's not intuitive!
It works though, so that's good, thanks for making me look at it again




Regarding CB scores, my machine is a few years old now, 2600k at stock speed, with GTX 970. So not that impressive with Cinebench. I can get decent performance out of Maya though for nearly all animation scenes I work with, particularly with Maya 2016 now with the Parallel evaluation and GPU modes, it really flies. I run Mayas Viewport 2.0 in DX 11 mode though, not Open GL.

My scores are (just ran CB today)
Open GL 92.12 fps
Cpu multi - 618
Cpu single -132.

My single GPU score isn't too bad really considering the age of the machine, and that's the one that really matters to me as I do little to no rendering here, I'm concerned about speed while working in the view more than anything else. If I saw a lot of CB Single scores that were double mine and higher I'd consider upgrading but that doesn't seem to be the case yet. I'm generally working with complex rigs a lot more than a high amount of geometry in my scenes.


Cheers,
Brian

Last edited by Horganovski : 10 October 2015 at 10:33 AM.
 
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