Why use C4D in a MAX / Maya world?

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Old 10 October 2015   #16
Haha, well I don't know about 5, but I can take a stab at 1 thing which encompasses the 'button pushing' side of every all-purpose 3D application... They're generally about 90% the same, just the buttons are in different places

That do ya?

I'm afraid my reasons for only posting on this forum are far less psychologically rooted... I generally avoid posting the same thread in multiple locations, as moderators tend to get funny about that sort of thing. Maybe I've just been on anal forums, but it's my general perception that it's somewhat taboo.

Believe it or not, I'm quite capable of doing without the sweet nectar of confirmation bias in favour of legitimate discussion and debate (as I assume most people here are). I can even... (drumroll) happily accept criticism of C4D without throwing any toys out the pram!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW7Op86ox9g

I thank you for amending your previous post. I welcome debate, just so long as it is above the belt



I happen to agree with your stance on education. Though I'd say a 50/50 stance between theory and 'button pushing' is best. After all, you can have Disney's 12 basic principles of animation memorised to a 'T'. But that won't make you feel any less lost when you open Maya for the first time and stare in horror at the sleuth of scary buttons that meet your gaze

I'm certainly not one to force any kind of software bias on students. In fact, one of my best students now has a career using MAX... The traitor
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Old 10 October 2015   #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by legmog
Maybe I've just been on anal forums, but it's my general perception that it's somewhat taboo.


Hey it's a free world (for the most part) so what kind of forums you choose to frequent are entirely up to you.

I'm pretty sure there is a rule here in general though that 'app comparison' threads are not permitted, for sure I've seen them closed down in other areas here, but they tend to slip by in the C4D section as far as I can see.

Coming back to my point about bias, I really believe that each program tends to occupy a different area/discipline so the information you get in a software-specific forum will always be skewed in a particular direction.

For example someone posted on page one here that they found it easier to build a mograph-type of setup in C4D than their colleague in Maya, I have no doubt that's true. On the other hand my main area is character animation and I could share anecdotes about how on my last C4D animation job (a TV commercial) I struggled with really slow response, buggy XRefs and spent a lot of my day waiting for preview renders to calculate as I couldn't really get a true sense of the timing at all with two character rigs loaded and the scene running at 5-7 FPS.
Conversely on my last Maya animation job I had 4 characters loaded at all times and the scene was running at 30-40 FPS. For me that's a huge difference in productivity as I had much less need to make playblasts/preview renders to check timing. Plus the fact that Mayas referencing system is a lot more robust made that job much easier than the C4D one, I spent less time waiting for things to load and re-pointing references to missing files and more time just animating.


So to the students who might look at say some behind-the-scenes videos of studios like Disney and Bluesky and see them animating in Maya (they both do, whereas Pixar and Dreamworks use their own proprietary software) and then wonder 'why don't we use Maya in college?' I would say they have a fair point. On the other hand if they want to work in advertising/motion graphics then for sure they should learn C4D.

So when you use language like 'I'm on team C4D' or someone is a 'traitor' to use Max, even if you use these terms in jest, it suggests a bias and unwillingness to take each program on it's merits and to see which area of production it's best suited for. And that is unfair to students who may be interested in those areas IMO.

Cheers,
Brian
 
Old 10 October 2015   #18
Howdy,
Quote:
Originally Posted by legmog
...I don't agree that it's pointless. Quite the opposite, I think it's a very worthwhile question / discussion to be having...

Well, what I meant was what Brian posted and then erased, that it's more important to teach the 3D principles rather than concentrate on any one particular software. For that you simply need the user manuals to show you where all the functions are located in the GUI. If there was an international standard 3D application GUI, then you wouldn't even need that.

Like the Mac vs. PC debate, they both use menus, windows, icons, etc. If you know those basic principles, then you can easily jump back and forth between them.

But, this forum has been known for it's heated app vs. app debates that deteriorate into arguments evolving into ugly personal attacks, which the moderators eventually close. So, that was the motivation behind my comment.

Hopefully, this thread won't go down that road.

Adios,
Cactus Dan
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Old 10 October 2015   #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Dan
But, this forum has been known for it's heated app vs. app debates that deteriorate into arguments evolving into ugly personal attacks.


Ah that's a pitty. I'm not a forum regular and was not aware of this. I'm hopeful this won't go the same way!
Though if it does... I suggest a gentlemanly glove slap across the face, and settle the matter on the field of honour (I have a couple of flint-lock pistols I can lend out ).


Otherwise, I think one of the main reasons I wanted to hear peoples thoughts on this subject was...
A good few years ago, I was contacted by a Hollywood CGI company for a freelance gig. I was stacking baked beans on a supermarket shelf for a living at the time, and was blown away with amazement at this turn of events

A little ways into dialogue with the contact... He said to me 'hmmm... Cinema 4D... I hear that most places are never using that in favour of Maya these days'. At the time this conversation occured (over the phone) I was INCREDIBLY nervous. I just sorta fumbled and replied with 'Oh... Really?'.

The job never came to pass. Later I figured 'ahh man... That was my chance to champion the pro's of the C4D software! And I fumbled the ball >.<', like maybe this dude was testing me. For what was required, C4D was totally capable of delivering the brief... Now if I were to take an 'educated guess', they might well have gone down the 'stick with what you know' route and got a Maya guy/gal in for the job.


So I guess that's the crux of my question... I'm not an aficionado of Max / Maya, but I have a bit of proffesional / hobby experience with Max under my belt. Not much, but enough to have a perception that both softwares appear to be capable of the same end results, yet one seems to have a much larger slice of the '3D industry pie' than the other. So it's been fascinating to hear peoples views on just why that is

I personally believe there's a LOT of people out there... Newbies, professionals, hobbyists and studio fat cats alike, who might well be pleasently suprised at just how capable C4D is
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Old 10 October 2015   #20
I dont think is a bad question. I asked this myself when I was using Maya and found Cinema through a friend. I tested it, and despite I was more proficient with Maya, I kept coming back to Cinema. Even now, sometimes I try to "leave" Cinema because I dont like modeling with C4D. Lucky for me, Zbrush added Zmodeler and Im very proficient with it. So I ended up using both.
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Old 10 October 2015   #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Dan
Howdy,

Well, what I meant was what Brian posted and then erased, that it's more important to teach the 3D principles rather than concentrate on any one particular software. For that you simply need the user manuals to show you where all the functions are located in the GUI. If there was an international standard 3D application GUI, then you wouldn't even need that.



This is very true.. When I was learning differnt softwares, the first thing I noticed was the similarities between programming and doing 3D. Almost all softwares have Global Illumination, Ambient Oclussion, Takes/Layers/Passes, Soft and Rigid bodies physics, Area shadows, etc. Just like every programming language in the world have If, Then, For, etc You just need to know where to look and what needs to be pressed / activated.

If you have students who are undecided, teach them Python with C4D. Programming is useful for everything: I know my way to code in After Effects, Cinema.4D, Vizrt and Ross Xpression. Im not an expert, but programming helps a lot, and not many people realize how important it is.
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Old 10 October 2015   #22
When i was working as 3d freelancer for looong years, i have tried nearly all packages. Very excited when Maya 1.0 came out. I did a transition to Maya over 3dsmax and used several years. But while being older man, i felt that spending lot of time for setting of very easy setups.

Lost my most valuable times has been spent in front of a pc. My pursuit never ended and gave a lot of tryouts for different software and looked a easy and capable interface.

So which should not make me tired for small processes and should give flexibility to do every needs. Even i was trying the C4D with some periods but couldn't solved the logic of workflow and object manager and it was seeming strange to me.

But one day a light came to my brain and understood what was wrong? It was about bad habits of workflow's other softwares. And since this day, i never looked back for another software. Best is that i feel happy and comfortable when i use it. I hope this gives to you some good ideas to say.
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Old 10 October 2015   #23
I feel like I can really fly in C4D, but I have been using it for a long time now. It was also the package I learnt 3D in so I guess I am at an advantage. Whilst I think some of the tools are really showing their age it really is the software I keep coming back to because it's just easier to do stuff in. And in my line of work speed is essential. The fewer steps I have to take between packages the better. This is why recently I have been doing a load of UVing in C4D and although I yearn for some more practical tools I still find I can do things pretty quickly, just knowing the toolsets limitations. Also the flexibility of the interface allows me to create a UV mapping layout that I feel more comfortable with.

I have Modo which I like hugely, and it is now incredibly powerful at a lot of things. It's architecture is built on learning skills in one area which propagate to another. This means you can do UVing and Modelling and the tools are very similar. It's is a very smart system I think. The mere fact that you have to swap tools in C4D to move UV polys as opposed to actual polys is a real buzzkill in my opinion.

However when it comes to rigging and setup the complication starts to set in and the drag and drop nature of C4D really starts to be more appealing. True the do it yourself nature of Modo allows for very complex and sophisticated rigs, but it is a massive area and one that would require a lot of leg work to really see the results. C4D in comparison might not be as flexible in it's rigging capabilities, but it certainly gets the job done. But then again maybe I'm no rigger. I have seen great stuff in C4D, and perhaps it's a bit beyond me.

I recently showed a Maya user who is now seriously moving toward C4D some of the tools in C4D and he was pretty amazed and liked what he saw. However he was struggling and it can only be expected when you have the legacy of years of working in another package. I know I would find it very difficult moving to Maya. So he should be commended for giving it a go.
 
Old 10 October 2015   #24
Honestly, I believe some people dig themselves a rut and choose to stay in it. I jump between C4D, Maya, Zbrush and 2D animation these days in TV Paint and really it's mainly about remembering some hotkeys.

Yesterday I was working on a face rig in Maya, doing the sculpts for the shapes in ZBrush and I though 'oh I need a quick way to mirror a blendShape that I don't have the other side for' so I dumped OBJs of the base mesh and the left side shape into C4D, flipped it with the pose morph tag and then exported that out to Maya. That's one part of the blendShape (morph) workflow that's very simple in C4D and easier than Maya. On the other hand other parts of the blendShape workflow (like painting out influences with controllable falloff and adding in-between shapes) are much easier in Maya. Corrective morphs are another example of something that doesn't really work that well in C4D, you have to use the Post Deformers option IIRC when working with skin deformers and that means you can't use some of the other options in that mode. So neither is perfect really.. they both have limitations you have to work around sometimes..

I would argue though that having knowledge of both systems and being open to using each one depending on what I'm trying to achieve gives me more tools and more solutions. I've used Maya cloth on C4D jobs, I've used C4D hair on Maya jobs (pre nHair/XGen ) etc etc..

You paint yourself in a corner with a 'I'm on team x' mentality I believe and close yourself off to possibilities. I don't really care about software as much as I care about a great result. And my clients don't give a crap what tools I use as long as they like the result.

[Edit - regarding the comment above.. I would use Maya for UVs any time over C4D, it's way more flexible and easy to use IMO, I often end up UV mapping the characters on rigging jobs for C4D clients and I always use UVLayout and/or Maya, I can knock out decent clean maps in no time with that combination).

Cheers,
Brian

Last edited by Horganovski : 10 October 2015 at 11:14 PM.
 
Old 10 October 2015   #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horganovski
[Edit - regarding the comment above.. I would use Maya for UVs any time over C4D, it's way more flexible and easy to use IMO, I often end up UV mapping the characters on rigging jobs for C4D clients and I always use UVLayout and/or Maya, I can knock out decent clean maps in no time with that combination).

Cheers,
Brian


Don't get me wrong. I hate UVing in C4D. Just that sometimes if it's quick and easy I will do it there as I have got much better at it. I don't do a lot of character work if any so mostly it's pretty straightforward. However I far prefer to UV in either 3D Coat or Modo.
 
Old 10 October 2015   #26
@horganovski

ever thought about producing a

Learning Maya for C4D Artists - Tutorial ?
with sub issues like:

Learning Maya for C4D Artists - Interface
Learning Maya for C4D Artists - Basic Workflow
Learning Maya for C4D Artists - Basis Animation
Learning Maya for C4D Artists - Basis Rigging


cheers
 
Old 10 October 2015   #27
@ noobbunny

Hah, that would be sweet.

I know there's been a lot of talk about the principles of Animation / 3D taking precedent over button pushing...

But a few years ago, I (as someone who is very well versed in animation / 3D principles already) obtained a job. However there was one snag.... It was a Max job, and at the time I had NEVER used the software.

I thus had 5 weeks to cram as MUCH knowledge of Max into my brain as possible

In this case, it was the no-nonsense sterile ''button pushing only'' tutorials which were EXACTLY the kind of thing I was looking for

It actually inspired me to make my own tutorial for C4D, which dispensed entirely with theory, and just got right down into the technical nitty gritty of how the GUI / Buttons function. I.e for people who're already familiar with the theory, and want to start knowing their way around the software. It was the tutorial I 'wish' I'd had for Max when I was trying to wrap my head around it
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Old 10 October 2015   #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by noobbunny
@horganovski

ever thought about producing a

Learning Maya for C4D Artists - Tutorial ?
with sub issues like:

Learning Maya for C4D Artists - Interface
Learning Maya for C4D Artists - Basic Workflow
Learning Maya for C4D Artists - Basis Animation
Learning Maya for C4D Artists - Basis Rigging


cheers


Well I had a very simple process for learning Maya :

1- get hired on a C4D job, sign contracts which legally require you to produce results.
2- realize that due to bugs with the FBX exporter sending data out to a game engine is not working in C4D and there's no way to complete the job in it.
3- switch to Maya and learn it over the Christmas break so that you can keep your job/not break the contract..

This is a few years back, but it's literally what happened me
The bugs with FBX are fixed now (depending on what version of C4D you use).

Joking/anecdotes aside I could make a tutorial like that but it would be a lot of work and I'm busy animating/rigging all the time so it's not something I would have a priority to do unless there was some money in it to be honest!

Cheers,
Brian
 
Old 10 October 2015   #29
Howdy,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horganovski
...Corrective morphs are another example of something that doesn't really work that well in C4D...

It does with CD Character Plugins :
http://www.cactus3d.com/CDMorphWithCDSkin.mov

Adios,
Cactus Dan
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Old 10 October 2015   #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Dan
It does with CD Character Plugins :
http://www.cactus3d.com/CDMorphWithCDSkin.mov


Yup, it sure does. With CD Morph you get a better workflow for corrective morphs than either Maya or the native tools in C4D.


It seems weird to me that with the native tools in C4D you have to select the 'post deformers' option in the morph tag to get correctives to work. That seems the opposite to what I'd expect, since I want the base state of the mesh to be affected by the morph and then that new state to be deformed by the skin deformer, which is what happens when you use the 'front of chain' option with Mayas blendShape deformer, the blend shape (aka morph) is calculated first and then the skin affects that result, not the other way around. So shouldn't the option in C4D be called 'pre deformers'?

The workflow for correctives in Maya is predictable but pretty old fashioned I guess, some people have made plugins, like the Shapes one from BraveRabbit to improve the workflow though. It's quite easy to script tools for it too, I wrote a tool a while back to make it simple to apply changes to cached geometry (alembic etc) on specific frames or for the entire animation. This was inspired by the 'Chronosculpt' app which I tried the demo of but didn't like that much (it doesn't import cameras which seems like a big limitation to me for this kind of work).



Cheers,
Brian

Last edited by Horganovski : 10 October 2015 at 05:37 PM.
 
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