The C4D-NGen1-ReVision Design Brief : No More MSA's - Product Restructuring

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  08 August 2015
Originally Posted by NiklasR: One important aspect of software development is "fix-as-you-go". Re-writing an application like Cinema which surely has 4 to 6 million lines of source code or even more would be an enormous task. What usually happens when you want to re-new the core of an application is you develop the new core separately, and then little-by-little, bring components of the new core to replace the old components so that the current release can benefit from this development.

Looking at the improvements from the past (e.g. multithreaded deformers, application structure change with R16, SDK improvements), my best guess is that something like this is already in the works.


I agree with all of this. Bottom line end-users shouldn't worry about it. It's a level of detail we don't need to be involved in. Just focus on the features and the performance. The coders will figure out the best way to implement things.
 
  03 March 2018
It's been 3 years since posting this....some said it was too soon..so hows the situation now ?
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C4D R11.5 ZBrush4 P-CS6 | Filmscore / Trance / Ambient - 27 on S-Cloud 16 on S-Click
 
  03 March 2018
Well fundamentally the core re-write is done, you already have it in your hands now. What needs to happen is for the features to be migrated from the old codebase to the new codebase (and in the process be improved and upgraded); this will happen feature by feature; materials, render engines, modelling tools, animation etc and will take a number of years yet.
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Matthew O'Neill
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  03 March 2018
I use external render engines almost exclusively, I use Substance designer and Painter for texturing, have mastered ZBrush as my main go to everything modeler, I know enough X-Particles to get by and I'm slowly learning Houdini.

And I repeatedly find myself saying the following "Cinema 4D is a hub, where I plug in all of this cool shit to get the job done", "Without those external apps, C4D is an empty shell"

I stand by that statement. C4D's a great stable piece of software, but by itself it leaves a lot to be desired.
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  03 March 2018
Related to cost i think that Maxon and Cinema loose a lot of users with their version  price/functionality structure.
I mean people that do 3D printing have to pay for Studio to have sculpting!?

It is freaking bit shot in their both feet. Don't surprise for more and more Blender.

This in a way is related to the issues people have with STL and so.  There are some areas that are out of Maxon mind even if their product can do good there.

Last edited by Bullit : 03 March 2018 at 06:50 PM.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by ThePriest: I use external render engines almost exclusively, I use Substance designer and Painter for texturing, have mastered ZBrush as my main go to everything modeler, I know enough X-Particles to get by and I'm slowly learning Houdini.

And I repeatedly find myself saying the following "Cinema 4D is a hub, where I plug in all of this cool shit to get the job done", "Without those external apps, C4D is an empty shell"

I stand by that statement. C4D's a great stable piece of software, but by itself it leaves a lot to be desired.

Yes, I think of c4d as my hub too.

Let's not forget: Pro level Max and Maya users also buy Substance Designer, Painter and Zbrush to round out their toolset. And they use external renderers.  They also turn to Houdini for advanced fluids, destruction, crowds and efx.

I think of 3d like medicine: there is your family doctor, a generalist...and also specialists you might need to go see.
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  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by -/\-Scott-M-C4D-/\-: It's been 3 years since posting this....some said it was too soon..so hows the situation now ?

Ask us in August but signs are at least trending in the right direction. R20 is allegedly "the big one," so whatever it ends up being we'll see if we get most of the way towards where most of us want Cinema to be, or if it's more piecemeal improvements that are good generally, but not what anyone has been asking for specifically.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by ThePriest: I use external render engines almost exclusively, I use Substance designer and Painter for texturing, have mastered ZBrush as my main go to everything modeler, I know enough X-Particles to get by and I'm slowly learning Houdini.

And I repeatedly find myself saying the following "Cinema 4D is a hub, where I plug in all of this cool shit to get the job done", "Without those external apps, C4D is an empty shell"

I stand by that statement. C4D's a great stable piece of software, but by itself it leaves a lot to be desired.


My situation as well
C4D is the final staging ground
for lighting and rendering  my uncompressed targas
to be sent to After effects CS for compositing,colorgrading
 and other VFX.

My Character animation work is done with Iclone 6.5 pipeline
using Daz genesis rigs.-MDD to C4D studio.

Clothing /garment simulation Daz Optitex-MDD to C4D studio
Auto lipsinc from imported audio files Daz genesis -MDD to C4D studio.
Character ragdoll physics, Endorphin to Daz genesis -MDD to C4D 
Fluid /water simulation Realflow into C4D via the plugins.

Need fairly realistic volumetric Smoke& Fire?
FBX my Cameras to Lightwave 2015 create the smoke /fire
Composite with C4D render in After effects CS.

For my modeling needs(Creation of my own Daz genesis clothing)
C4D  is sufficient but I do have an old seat of MODO for Sculpting 
custom morphs for Daz genesis figures 


Excluding Daz & Iclone all of my apps are quite Old yet still 
provide the functionality I need for my creative objectives
Not paying MSA or any Autodesk subs.


Don't bloody care about what "might" be in R20.
 
  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by Blinny: Ask us in August but signs are at least trending in the right direction. R20 is allegedly "the big one," so whatever it ends up being we'll see if we get most of the way towards where most of us want Cinema to be, or if it's more piecemeal improvements that are good generally, but not what anyone has been asking for specifically.

As mentioned in the blog, R20 is internally a significant change to the degree that plugins will need to be tweaked and recompiled; and from a personal view I think R20 is looking to be a great update. But that said, please don't expect the second coming of the messiah. There will be no wine and loaves, it is still the C4D you are used to.
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Last edited by imashination : 03 March 2018 at 01:45 PM.
 
  03 March 2018
i also as c4d user like the MSA i must say, have it since it exists,
it not forces me to update (as autodesk does with 3dmax, i did quit my max subascription this year as i dislike their new terms and huge cost increase) 
as i coudl cancle the MSA easy, but it saves me around 100.- every year on update cost+ extra bonus things (and i woudl update anyway)

for the "rewrite", wasnt there the official post from maxon here in cgtalk  that they do exact a new/refreshed code base for many parts of the c4d core, since some longer time or even  years now?
but in an intelligent way, not to break any at once, by step by step....?
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  03 March 2018
Quote: i also as c4d user like the MSA i must say, have it since it exists,
it not forces me to update (as autodesk does with 3dmax, i did quit my max
subascription this year as i dislike their new terms and huge cost
increase) 
as i coudl cancle the MSA easy, but it saves me around 100.- every year on update cost+ extra bonus things (and i woudl update
anyway)

for the "rewrite", wasnt there the official post from maxon here in cgtalk  that they do exact a new/refreshed code base for
many parts of the c4d core, since some longer time or even  years now?
but in an intelligent way, not to break any at once, by step by step....?


Picking up on the cost of ownership of Cinema 4D, if I had decided to pick up
on Maxon's yearly maintenance cost to stay current to this day from the
version I have now, the calculation is  around £3595 !!!... and that's from R12 to R19.
That's pretty crazy compared to other software, and I honestly can't see how that could
be possibly good value. 

ZBrush 4 I picked up for as little as  £250 from another user of it, way back in 2011
and I've never had to pay for a single upgrade of it since then, I'm amazed.

Like some others here that have posted, I've really began to find my feet with it,
particularly the modelling side which has matured and I've adapt workflows
that I normally have with Cinema 4D R11.5, incorporating the link with GOZ.

Photoshop CS6 hasn't increased in cost either from the £630 I paid for it, just before it went full CC. 

In the past year I discovered Blackmagics Fusion 9, and I was blown away
by what it is able to provide, even in the free version ( or £215
commercial version ), which even allows importation of Cinema 4D models
into it's 3D environment most notably and converge if you excuse the
pun, the magic it's able to provide within the VFX motion arena.

I wasn't aware of this program back in 2015, but it's exactly the sort of
thing I'd have expected Cinema 4D to have embraced by now in this field,
at least at a primary level. 

Also in contrast, the professional production software I use for my music cost's as little as £130 for big
1.0 upgrades and that's after 4 years of free maintenance updates and
point .5 updates between them.

Is Cinema 4D forever going to be a jack of all trades but master of none for an eternity ? I remember back
in the day Bodypaint was promoted to be the epitome of Maxon's strengths with no equal..things obviously changed with the rise of other software.

When R20 finally drops, I'll be putting it under my microscope, and to see
if Cinema 4D is ever worth investing in again, I do fear it won't be and
I'll forever be using 11.5 for an eternity with other reasonably priced
solutions.  

I've always hated what they did with the castrated stair cased structuring of the program from R12 onwards. It's truly horrible....even just to look at it.
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Last edited by -/\-Scott-M-C4D-/\- : 03 March 2018 at 04:35 AM.
 
  03 March 2018
"Maxon's yearly maintenance cost to stay current to this day from the
version I have now, the calculation is  around £3595 !!!... and that's from R12 to R19."


well that is only 500.- per year for the studio bundle, 12-19 is a 7 year period, and that's A LOT LESS than 3d max or maya update cost per year, p.e which are the comparable products out there
also the adobe stuff costs a lot more to keep up-to-date

if you compare it to some cad apps many use, where you pay like 1500+ per year , quite a bargain

in end if we are not willing to pay the developments (maxon has also to pay the devs etc) we will not be able to get good updates, thats a very simple maths.
the maxon update costs are very fair  so far i believe.
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  03 March 2018
Originally Posted by -/\-Scott-M-C4D-/\-: Picking up on the cost of ownership of Cinema 4D, if I had decided to pick up on Maxon's yearly maintenance cost to stay current to this day from the version I have now, the calculation is  around £3595 !!!... and that's from R12 to R19. That's pretty crazy compared to other software, and I honestly can't see how that could be possibly good value.


8 years of Maya is £13,150
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  03 March 2018
There are many perspectives to come from, and the cost side of things this was one of the reason I jumped to C4D over Maya before it went purely rental.  As it turns I would have been out the upgrade cycle for Maya long ago which  reinforces my belief that C4D was a good investment.

Now just because C4D lines up well in this comparison price point it dont mean its cheap, the fact is non of them are, they are all over priced because  studios will pay for it.  The freelancer things get a bit tighter, then the hobbyist in due course they will get pushed out altogether as the price creeps up, and up, but as Iv noticed many dont even own a legit licence who come over to the cafe.

Where I think Maxon is really missing out is old users.  3 versions without a upgrade and your out.  These users should not be put on the band wagon as a competitive cross grade they should be given a much better offer as in the end it gets these users back on the MSA.  Not forgetting Cinevercity, it has much value in which some of the scripts.plugins could be sold as plugins alone.  The forum is very helpful, and the depth of knowledge even via older videos are still very valid, iv learnt heaps from Brett Bays.

Scott there has been some big additions to C4D since v12, it just depends on if the additions are of benifit to you which I can understand if some are not.  I do hope r20 is a substantial upgrade in general in which all users benefit from, but I have to except that I will not benifit as much as others as I have external apps dealing with other dedicated areas in which C4D cant be expected to compete with so for me "a minority" to gain from r20 it would have to be in the modelling department, and character animation improvements, and overall speed.  If they have the stats in front of them showing how many users they that left with older versions, they would do well to give them a substantial discount to r20 to get them back on board.

Dan
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  03 March 2018
Quote: Now just because C4D lines up well in this comparison price point it dont mean its cheap, the fact is non of them are, they are all over priced because  studios will pay for it.  The freelancer things get a bit tighter, then the hobbyist in due course they will get pushed out altogether as the price creeps up, and up, but as Iv noticed many dont even own a legit licence who come over to the cafe.


I wouldn't say they're all overpriced. You've got to keep in mind economies of scale involved. You can get photoshop for £20 per month, but consider the development costs are split amongst 5+ million users. 3D is a much smaller niche, the big apps have between 50k-200k users, both photoshop and a 3D app will have 50-100 programmers working on them. £240 per year for photoshop, £620 per year for c4d; considering they both have to pay a similar amount for the development, c4d actually comes in relatively cheap given the smaller number of users paying into the development fund.

Quote: Where I think Maxon is really missing out is old users.  3 versions without a upgrade and your out.  These users should not be put on the band wagon as a competitive cross grade they should be given a much better offer as in the end it gets these users back on the MSA. 


This bit we can agree on. Im fine for the cost to go up the longer you leave it, but having a sudden cut off point of needing the rebuy the whole thing sucks.
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