New Mac Pro & Cinema 4D

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Old 12 December 2013   #61
Originally Posted by celke: So, bashing the excellent c4d-board here is much more mature. I would appreciate if you could stop that kind of rude behavior in the future too.

Thank you and cheers

celke


I did not want to sound general. But Fact is that this Forum is Moderated much more than c4d-Board. And it happens that very few people are bashing all good conversation with their aggressive sexist comments. I know there are excellent people over at c4d-board ( I even know some in Person) but that is the sad thing...some few people can ruin a hole forum if not moderated. Forums like this are NOT a place for free speech for a good reason. there are other places.
Let me put it this way: I prefer to be part of a more moderated Forum.
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Old 12 December 2013   #62
I think that the biggest issue has to do with the lack of GPU options. One day, OpenCL may be the way to go, but for now CUDA is more popular. The 2013 MP looks great, but I think most pros would have been happy if they just updated the components of the current model.

I hate to say it, but part of me hopes that lack of sales will force Apple to offer a mid-range option for pro users who find the new MP not suited for their needs and the iMac not quite what they want as well. Maybe a pro Mac mini or headless iMac.
 
Old 12 December 2013   #63
ordered mine.
no brainer really. 2 years 0% apple lease. its worth >50% of the purchase price after 2 years and you buy it out , for yourself, for the price of a months lease. It basically costs me nothing at all and is still worth 2.5k after 2 years. Try that with a win box from dell & co.

It doesn't matter what the specs are, it just makes financial sense to buy one.
 
Old 12 December 2013   #64
Originally Posted by tapaul: It doesn't matter what the specs are, it just makes financial sense to buy one.

While that's a good deal, the specs do matter.
I use Octane, and that box is useless to me. I'm happy some people find it a good product, since it means Apple won't abandon the pro line altogether, but I will switch to a PC box this year, regardless of prices, purposefully so I can get the specs I need.
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Old 12 December 2013   #65
Post

the mac costs 4462 eur with no keyboard or mouse....
•3,5 GHz 6-Core mit 12 MB L3-Cache
•32 GB (4x 8 GB) DDR3 ECC mit 1866 MHz
•512 GB PCIe ssd
•2 AMD FirePro D500 GPUs with 3 GB GDDR5 VRAM memory each



I have also ordered (and can pick up in the morning) a 6 core i7 with that asus WS board, 32gb of ram and a samsung 256gb SSD + 2x 2tb wd reds and a crap NVgraphics card and thats cost me 2400, from fred bloggs up the road here.
so in terms of performance I expect the mac to be a tad quicker, but in 2 years, I expect the no name box, fine as it is, to be worth sweet f*ck all. on the other hand its 2k cheeper... so its all swings and roundabouts.

edit:
bah apple just changed delivery from jan to feb !!! bah!

For anyone interested, the lease for 36 months is about 120 eur including VAT and for 24 months its around 180 including VAT and 4 payments at the end to buy it.

Last edited by tapaul : 12 December 2013 at 04:19 PM.
 
Old 12 December 2013   #66
Talking

Originally Posted by tapaul: the mac costs 4462 eur with no keyboard or mouse....
•3,5 GHz 6-Core mit 12 MB L3-Cache
•32 GB (4x 8 GB) DDR3 ECC mit 1866 MHz
•512 GB PCIe ssd
•2 AMD FirePro D500 GPUs with 3 GB GDDR5 VRAM memory each


Paul, this is really expensive!

I wll not buy Voxygen...
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Last edited by fireball101 : 12 December 2013 at 05:33 PM.
 
Old 12 December 2013   #67
Whether a PC workstation depreciates faster than a Mac Pro or not, it doesn't make financial sense to pay double what the hardware is worth in the first place.

I don't have to chime in on this thread, I could show some restraint, but I keep reading how PC workstations are these worthless hunks of junk, that after a couple of years, aren't worth sh*t (and other choice words). Why is okay to make these assessments, but the PC users shouldn't point out to you the obvious about what you're getting for your money?

In two years, sure you can sell your new shiny machine with minimal losses. But who gives a hoot about resale value, really? When in two weeks I can make back what I paid for my workstation. But there in lies my point. Two years down the road, I'm not feeling like my workstation is obselete, I can still upgrade the CPU, the GPU is easy to replace, and if all of a sudden 96gb of ram isn't cutting it, it's not a problem to make a jump to 192gb.

So I consider the PC workstation to be a good investment, something you spend time developing to your needs, not this thing you're lumped with for 4 years until the company decides to roll out its next machines with a set of disappointing and lower end specs. The only downside to owning a PC is when eventually the CPU requires a motherboard change. But in the case of LGA 2011, that hasn't happened yet.

I sincerely hope your Macs do what you expect them to do. But I'd prefer not to read that my investment was a poor choice. I have double your computational power and a huge boost to productivity, all for the cost of your highest configurable machine, which by today's standards barely earns the 'workstation' label.
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Old 12 December 2013   #68
180 eur a month(including VAT) is not a lot of money, especially when your offsetting it 100% against tax. If your self employed it costs nothing. If I had to lay down 4.5k for one computer, that is not even delivered with a keyboard or mouse, I would not do it in a million years. Of course the mac pro is overpriced, but where else can you lease anything for 0%, no hassle and have something that is actually worth purchasing (transfering asset from buss to private) for significantly less cash than what it is worth at the end of the lease. Im saying it makes sense for me, and if you think about it, and your self employed, and the machine can do the job for you, it makes a lot of sense. Dont think about the purchase price when your not actually purchasing it. The tax man is purchasing it for you.He is buying you a 2500 EUR personal asset, as appsed to a 200 quid asset. Not much to think about.
 
Old 12 December 2013   #69
I also think the Mac Pro is a good deal. What is it that you need if you work as a C4D-3D-Artist? You mainly need fast single-core speed (for fast viewport speed, deformers, bools, Hypernurbs, All kind of Generators (Nurbs, Mograph, instances, Symmetry etc) , hair, sketch&toon, dynamics all mainly single threaded). MacPro = 3,9GHZ (turboboost). Because of the good Air-flow-cooling, the MacPro will hopefully allow the processor to work at that speed most of the time.
Also you need fast I/O. MacPro= Thunderbolt2 and PCIe-Flash-Harddrive and fast RAM. This is mainly good for opening big Assets, loading lots of big texture, reading/writing of caching-data for particles, Dynamics Allembic and Xrefs. (not to forget Auto-Save, which kills much time of the Day if you work on 3GB-Assets)
This is what you are mainly doing and which cost you expensive time if you work professional.
Than there is Renderspeed for previewing Testrenders: For this you won't need the Mac Pro. This is something the Software-Developer are already addressing with Teamrender & Vray DR etc.
I believe the times where you need that one Machine with the most Cinebench-points as possible are over.

Regarding PC-Vallue Loss:
I recently bought fifteen used (one year old) i5-quad-core 3,3Ghz machines with 4GB Ram (150€ each). I added 8GB Ram (95€ each). Makes 2250€+1425€=3675€. Now I have a cheap 60-Core (3.3Ghz) Renderfarm. Adding a 6-core MacPro as my Workstation and I will be more than fine with Teamrender and Vray DR.
After two years I will just sell the MacPro and get a newer Model. Cloning my Harddrive before I switch the machine and I don't have much to deal with. All External Devices stay where they are. No need to change them hopefully.

Regarding CUDA vs OpenCL:
I will have benefits with OpenCL for Adobe-Software (Mainly AfterEffects), Davinci-Resolve supports OpenCl. I can hopefully soon use my OpenCL cards for Turbulence4D Simulations (OpenCL-support announced). I am thinking about purchasing Mari which also Supports openCL.

If I ever want to Render with CUDA I can also add a CUDA-PC to my Farm and use Vray-RT via DR on my MacPro when Vray-RT comes for c4d. Stefan said that would be possible on the Vray4D-Board. Also I think there will come external PCI-Cases for GPU-Cards for sure.

Having two FirePro sounds not necessary at the moment. But time will tell if software will go the Dual-GPU route in future. I think it can not hurt so much to have Dual GPU. At least Apple-software will surely benefit from this in future (FinalCut Pro, Motion). Also you can keep working on one GPU while the other is Rendering/Calculating Simulations.

cheers, Holger
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Last edited by HolgerBiebrach : 12 December 2013 at 08:25 PM.
 
Old 12 December 2013   #70
Fair points my friend!
 
Old 12 December 2013   #71
Originally Posted by ThePriest: Whether a PC workstation depreciates faster than a Mac Pro or not, it doesn't make financial sense to pay double what the hardware is worth in the first place.

I don't have to chime in on this thread, I could show some restraint, but I keep reading how PC workstations are these worthless hunks of junk, that after a couple of years, aren't worth sh*t (and other choice words). Why is okay to make these assessments, but the PC users shouldn't point out to you the obvious about what you're getting for your money?

In two years, sure you can sell your new shiny machine with minimal losses. But who gives a hoot about resale value, really? When in two weeks I can make back what I paid for my workstation. But there in lies my point. Two years down the road, I'm not feeling like my workstation is obselete, I can still upgrade the CPU, the GPU is easy to replace, and if all of a sudden 96gb of ram isn't cutting it, it's not a problem to make a jump to 192gb.

So I consider the PC workstation to be a good investment, something you spend time developing to your needs, not this thing you're lumped with for 4 years until the company decides to roll out its next machines with a set of disappointing and lower end specs. The only downside to owning a PC is when eventually the CPU requires a motherboard change. But in the case of LGA 2011, that hasn't happened yet.

I sincerely hope your Macs do what you expect them to do. But I'd prefer not to read that my investment was a poor choice. I have double your computational power and a huge boost to productivity, all for the cost of your highest configurable machine, which by today's standards barely earns the 'workstation' label.


Probably there was a misunderstanding I've never said that PC workstation are junk, I was just talking about hackintosh. 99,9% of the hackintosh are just cheap alternative(between 500 and 1500$, even less) to real mac. That kind of computer will be worthless very soon as well as an equivalent based pc. Of course real wintel workstation(Xeon, Ecc ram, workstation graphic ecc) will keep more value over time.
About the new mac pro, IMO with today's software(distributed rendering, team render ecc)there is really no real reason to go for a pricey dual Xeon workstation anymore, you can buy a single fast Xeon workstation(mac or pc your choice) that will be even faster than a 24core machine for most operation, and just add non Xeon render nodes when you need more power.
About upgradability, I always have the possibility to upgrade my old Mac pro with faster Xeon ecc, and I can do that on the new Mac pro as well(probably not the GPU). That been said in 15 years of activity I've never upgrade anything besides my ram on my computer simply because if you change one part most of the time you have to change something else to not encounter other bottlenecks, and if I have to change my CPU, my GPU, my hd, my ram ecc, well... I prefer to sell my aging hardware and invest in a brand new workstation.
Now, let's talk about money, I've just purchased an 8core version for 6500$:
8core Xeon
Dual d700(basically an AMD W9000, same spec)
1tb ssd(not really an ssd, much faster)
That may not fit your needs, but it certainly fit mines. If I have to assemble that machine by myself this is the price:
Dual W9000 about 6000$, but let's say 4000$ because the d700 don't come in the same form
8core Xeon 1700$
1tb ssd 1000$
...
... there's no need to continue the list, I hope I've already proved my point
About the render power, I've already purchased 2 wintel render nodes(6core/12 threat @4.1ghz, about 1000$ each, 1200 cinebench score, almost the same score of a 12core 2.66ghz old Mac pro ), I'm about to add two more nodes and a ram upgrade for the main workstation(64gb 1866 ecc for 650$).
For little above 10k I'll have much more render power than any dual xeon workstation. And let's face it... if you assemble a pc by yourself you can save something but if you go for a brand like HP, dell or any other vendor you can easily be around 15K(even more) for a dual 12core xeon system(curios why many are noting that apple "steal" your money but nobody do the same with HP, Boxx, Dell and similar, well... the thing is that as far as it may seem strange, computer company have to add some margin to stay in business )
After all, I can stay on my preferred OS(without viruses and many little windows shortcoming, at least for me..), and have a faster solution than any 24core wintel workstation for both editing and rendering, all of this for about 10k.
Am I a fool?

Last edited by sirio : 12 December 2013 at 11:31 PM.
 
Old 12 December 2013   #72
If your picking one up, you can save some money with OWC
OWC Announces RAM Upgrades for New Mac Pro, Up to 64 GB for $895

http://www.macrumors.com/2013/12/19...-64-gb-for-895/

"The same upgrades directly from Apple are priced at an additional $500 for 32 GB and $1300 for 64 GB of RAM in the lower-end quad-core Mac Pro and $400/$1200 in the higher-end 6-core Mac Pro."
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Old 12 December 2013   #73
Check also this(790$):
http://www.crucial.com/eu/store/lis...3%29 &pl=Apple

Or this(670$):
http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=D3-18R16GH
 
Old 12 December 2013   #74
You can also get Money Back for the ram you did get from apple:
After you upgrade with OWC, save even more with OWC’s Trade-In Rebate for the original factory memory. Receive $75 for an Apple factory 12GB (4GB x 3) set, $100 for factory 16GB (4GB x 4) set removed from any Mac Pro 2013 model.

So if you got the bare 16GB and went 64GB with OWC thats only $795 now.

http://blog.macsales.com/21980-owc-...ions#more-21980
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Old 12 December 2013   #75
re: ram price. pricey yes. but crazy, no.
imo.


prices are including vat !! so figure that out against usd and 32gb is not so bad (ram prices have shot up recently) I know its way over market price, but its apple and they always do that.

The only thing that bugs me about the rather limited config options, is that you can't get any more than a 1tb ssd inside it, and that for silly money, which is ridiculous in this day and age.

Last edited by tapaul : 12 December 2013 at 10:24 PM.
 
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