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Old 09-19-2013, 04:46 PM   #61
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I tend to agree about the bug reporting system, today I uploaded a file and wrote a report about a bug I'm having with Xrefs. And it does take time to do these things, reduce the project down, write coherently about what's going on, etc. Essentially you're writing a report. I know it's for the greater good but when things are already going belly up it's not the first thing I want to do.
 
Old 09-19-2013, 05:21 PM   #62
Jops
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Normaly I always got a response.. something like:

this is a known issue or it works like intended

but the last times I just got nothing back... maybe i am on the black list already


edit: ok im not on the black list. I got a friendly feedback from maxon right now. Thanks a lot

best regards
Jops

Last edited by Jops : 09-19-2013 at 05:24 PM.
 
Old 09-19-2013, 05:28 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tapaul
bjorn, with all due respect.

In light of the "only 10 compaints about TR" situation, you should be asking yourselves if your web form submission paradagim is delivering the user feedback you require, to give your users what they want. Or if it is just "in the way" and not working.

Telling people that "copy pasted suggestions will not have nearly as much impact" reaffirms my opinion on how well Maxon is listening(or wants to listen)


I think really it is just a statement saying that a user putting a little effort into their response shows that they are actually affected rather than just a "me too" sort of situation.
I think a similar situation would be when you would propose plugins and you would get 100 "I wants" and then only limited sales, at which point you switched to a pre-sale method which meant you got true feedback from those that were committed.

Form responses also kill diversity within the idea, if each user is thinking about how the would like tool "x" to function it provides a better pool of options to choose from, where as if every request is the same then you lose that diversity.

Like in Simon's case, he could just post a form response of "fix xrefs" but it doesn't explain his needs or what needs to be fixed.

(Also, I am not commenting on how reports are handled once submitted, I am just saying that I can see some benefit to not just using a copy / paste request.)
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:31 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chi
I think really it is just a statement saying that a user putting a little effort into their response shows that they are actually affected rather than just a "me too" sort of situation.
I think a similar situation would be when you would propose plugins and you would get 100 "I wants" and then only limited sales, at which point you switched to a pre-sale method which meant you got true feedback from those that were committed.

Form responses also kill diversity within the idea, if each user is thinking about how the would like tool "x" to function it provides a better pool of options to choose from, where as if every request is the same then you lose that diversity.

Like in Simon's case, he could just post a form response of "fix xrefs" but it doesn't explain his needs or what needs to be fixed.

(Also, I am not commenting on how reports are handled once submitted, I am just saying that I can see some benefit to not just using a copy / paste request.)


While I don't disagree with the spirit of your response, ofttimes, when squeaking out a little time to research in between renders or notes, one only has time for a 'me too' response. It would be nice if everyone could give detailed individual feedback, but in our fast-paced, deadline driven industry, it is sometimes simply not possible. That a person takes the time to visit the web form page at all and go through the necessary submission steps is, in and of itself, a pretty strong indicator that the person submitting takes the issue seriously.
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:38 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chi
I think really it is just a statement saying that a user putting a little effort into their response shows that they are actually affected rather than just a "me too" sort of situation.
I think a similar situation would be when you would propose plugins and you would get 100 "I wants" and then only limited sales, at which point you switched to a pre-sale method which meant you got true feedback from those that were committed.

Form responses also kill diversity within the idea, if each user is thinking about how the would like tool "x" to function it provides a better pool of options to choose from, where as if every request is the same then you lose that diversity.

Like in Simon's case, he could just post a form response of "fix xrefs" but it doesn't explain his needs or what needs to be fixed.

(Also, I am not commenting on how reports are handled once submitted, I am just saying that I can see some benefit to not just using a copy / paste request.)

Thanks Patrick, you brought what i meant to the point.
It's not that "Me Too" suggestions are ignored, they just don't hold as much umph.
The irony of proposing Maxon to implement much more personal feedback alongside the idea of using impersonal votes by users instead of formulating ideas, is not lost on me
Cheers
Björn
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Old 09-19-2013, 09:11 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GruvDOne
While I don't disagree with the spirit of your response, ofttimes, when squeaking out a little time to research in between renders or notes, one only has time for a 'me too' response. It would be nice if everyone could give detailed individual feedback, but in our fast-paced, deadline driven industry, it is sometimes simply not possible. That a person takes the time to visit the web form page at all and go through the necessary submission steps is, in and of itself, a pretty strong indicator that the person submitting takes the issue seriously.


The suggestion form takes about 20 seconds to fill out the general information or a shorter amount of time than you probably spent writing your response to me.

So 20 seconds + 2 seconds for a copy / paste makes for that idea only being worth 22 seconds of your time...also, if your renders only take 22 seconds, you probably shouldn't even be switching focus away from cinema at that point or if you are taking smaller breaks, leave the window open, and then come back to it throughout the day.

Now actual bug reports do take longer as there is obviously more information needed to consider when tracking down a bug...but in these cases not taking the time to make a thorough submission will only come back to bite you later on, which will likely make for time losses greater than the time put into making the bug report (even with the extra info it constitutes maybe 1 min. of time to get the general information filled out.)
...and if there isn't any fix right away, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing you did the most you could in an attempt to not only help yourself, but MAXON, and the rest of the community.

Also, obviously it is not just clarity that affects the process, volume of reports is also considered...but again..."me too's" can skew that. Like if a user that would never need particles sees a form letter for a particle system they can send to maxon and sends that in...while it is still a valid request, it isn't actually showing a proper representation of the "need" for that feature.
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Old 09-19-2013, 10:28 PM   #67
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Like always everything has its ups and down's

but dont underestimate the work that you have to do for a propper feedback. you have to track the the bug down so that you know what is happening. then you have do discribe it in a way that is unmissunderstandible and maybe you even setup a scene as a example. that takes more than just some minutes. If you had a chance to see if this issue already was reported you could save the time. For me many times I got the resopnse that this thing is known and they work on it.
that is fine and a welcomed response but sometimes i feel quite a bit unhappy, that i had to invest my time to tell maxon what they already knew.
that leeds to the situation that i sometimes dont report bugs as i suspect them to be already known by maxon, even though i have no prove of it.

reporting for me (as for many others I guess) is not just a egoistic thing as i most of the time find a workaround anyway.
but maybe things could be improved somehow.

well a compleete buglist is maybe to much to ask for... but maybe a top things that already get adressed?
I know that can put pressure on maxon but maybe it leads to hapier reporters

best regards
Jops
 
Old 09-19-2013, 10:37 PM   #68
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R15

I dont want to break your discussion guys but my R15 impression is a bit sad. I know reproach something is easy but I really expected fine tuning of existing tools. For example casching dynamics (since R12) is using just one core, announced nuke export is broken again etc. I understand this is not so atractive for marketing usage but imho it would be better way how to extend user satisfaction.
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Old 09-20-2013, 01:17 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jops
Like always everything has its ups and down's

but dont underestimate the work that you have to do for a propper feedback. you have to track the the bug down so that you know what is happening. then you have do discribe it in a way that is unmissunderstandible and maybe you even setup a scene as a example. that takes more than just some minutes. If you had a chance to see if this issue already was reported you could save the time. For me many times I got the resopnse that this thing is known and they work on it.
that is fine and a welcomed response but sometimes i feel quite a bit unhappy, that i had to invest my time to tell maxon what they already knew.
that leeds to the situation that i sometimes dont report bugs as i suspect them to be already known by maxon, even though i have no prove of it.

reporting for me (as for many others I guess) is not just a egoistic thing as i most of the time find a workaround anyway.
but maybe things could be improved somehow.

well a compleete buglist is maybe to much to ask for... but maybe a top things that already get adressed?
I know that can put pressure on maxon but maybe it leads to hapier reporters

best regards
Jops


I know exactly how much work goes into bug reporting I've been doing it for a few years (it's all beta testing is)... and I also know what running into a bug at 3am with a deadline looming over me feels like. I might be a contractor for a MAXON reseller but that doesn't mean I don't do "real" work.

But the way I look at it, the process of stripping down a scene to locate a bug is an extremely useful tool in it's own right.
It can help you find more efficient workflows, it can help you locate user errors, and it can even help you in developing workarounds for existing issues.
As CG artists our job is to be problem solvers...through and through.
So we can either get pissed, or we can take a breather, find the workaround and submit the bug report.

If you get an email back from maxon saying they know about the issue, then that is also important...it means that yes they know there is an issue AND they get a better idea of how many people are affected by the issue.

If only one person files a bug report because everyone else just expects someone else to have reported it, then MAXON only sees this bug affecting 1 person.
This then means you are leaving the importance of the issue as a judgement call rather than quantitative evidence of the impact.

In short all bug requests / feature requests are important. (Which is exactly why we always encourage everyone to always submit.)
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Old 09-20-2013, 06:21 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jops
i sometimes dont report bugs as i suspect them to be already known by maxon, even though i have no prove of it.

You would be surprised how often only a very small number of reports (single digit range) reaches Maxon on topics that turn out to be highest priority fixes.. Don't hesitate, send the report, send the idea, don't assume that somehow Maxon already knows.
Cheers
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Old 09-20-2013, 07:21 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srek
You would be surprised how often only a very small number of reports (single digit range) reaches Maxon on topics that turn out to be highest priority fixes.. Don't hesitate, send the report, send the idea, don't assume that somehow Maxon already knows.
Cheers
Björn


good to know.

thanks
Jops
 
Old 09-20-2013, 07:32 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jops
good to know.

thanks
Jops

and the more reports about a problem the easier it is for the dev team to find what is causing it
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Old 09-20-2013, 09:05 AM   #73
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>You would be surprised how often only a very small number of reports (single digit range) >reaches Maxon on topics that turn out to be highest priority fixes

And you think thats because your users dont have opinions?

I see new bugs every day, but if I where to report them all, in the way you expect, it would almost be a full time job. I hardly ever send crash reports anymore, becuase It is distracting me from whatever I am doing (like this thread) I m also very aware of the futility of reporting bugs or requesting features. It doestn't get anything fixed or changed. so its not helping me today, when I need it to work.

You should be asking yourselves why, to all intents and purposes, you are getting no feedback at all from your own user base.

Your expecting too much from your users.Asking them to do your work for you.
An "I dont like this feature too much" is infinatly more valuable that sweet f*ck all.
You all need to get up off your high horses and come back down to planet earth if you want to discover the opinions of your own users. Make a more effort to dig for that treasure, and stop expecting users to serve it up to you on a silver tablet.

Everett out.

Last edited by tapaul : 09-20-2013 at 09:16 AM.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 09:31 AM   #74
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Would be nice to see some sort of survey/poll, turn into real product development. Even if it was a small percentage of the total product development.

The plain old feedback form seems to be a bit like Narnia. Few people know about it, fewer use it and when stuff goes through it - no one has any idea what happens to it or when anything will come back.

Classic case - the bevel tool (which is now superb). That's been asked for, discussed, posted to the official feedback form since the year dot. Certainly never thought it would happen after all these years of 'apparently' being ignored. No rhyme or reason why it should suddenly surface. I expect many see feedback now as a waste of time.

Maxon must wish to glean more 'wants' from users than are currently posted through 1 feedback form. Another method should be adopted to support user needs and suggestions.

Last edited by deepshade : 09-20-2013 at 10:25 AM.
 
Old 09-20-2013, 09:59 AM   #75
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Quote:
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Classic case - the bevel tool (which is now superb). That's been asked for, discussed, posted to the official feedback form since the year dot. Certainly never thought it would happen after all these years of 'apparently' being ignored. No rhyme or reason why it should suddenly surface. I expect many see feedback now as a waste of time.

I'm not sure i can follow you here. The new bevel is a testimony to Maxon having taken great care to analyze quite a lot of input before finalizing the tool. It should be an encouragement for user to provide feedback imo, not the other way around.
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