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  08 August 2013
TP Status

Hello, I'm evaluating C4D as an alternative and found Thinking Particles seems to be neutered from the one cebas sells. I understand that it was released in 2002 with R8, but was wondering if those have followed it's development, has it ever been updated? Is it something that bothers C4D users or something they wish for?
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Khye Kading
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by oatz: Hello, I'm evaluating C4D as an alternative and found Thinking Particles seems to be neutered from the one cebas sells. I understand that it was released in 2002 with R8, but was wondering if those have followed it's development, has it ever been updated? Is it something that bothers C4D users or something they wish for?


based on it's release in 2002, it has another two years before it "may" be updated ; )

just kidding... (well, yes and no in the kidding part)

in the meantime the awesome X-Particles v2 has just released and is good!

the growing bad part with C4D is it seems maxon has left third party developers to bail out more then one aging left for dead modules... the bad is we still "pay" for the inclusion of these modules that fill the checkbox requirements of "included" in the top dollar Studio bundle

the good is there are some really incredible third party developers making such modules like X-Particles v2 that really mesh amazingly well into C4D - sometimes better then the maxon modules themselves (i.e. Z-blur is one that always reminds me of how much better it is over factory tools)

so to be honest, i don't think any long time C4D users will say to buy based on some future module "might be" - some spend many years waiting like that - and yeah, there are a few C4D modules a bit long in the tooth - but as we just learned with Team Render killing off NET - the update may not be what you wished for once it arrives

dann
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  08 August 2013
Hi Dann, have you used Xparticles? I am searching the web for a simple example of Xparticles being able to produce a spark type behaviour - (particles emiting from the point of collision of other scene objects)

This is a simple sort of think most users would expect to do, no? after two days with x-particles I can see no way to do this, it seems more motion gfx oriented.. and the UI/user experience exhibits no logic,

It is a great way to drive TFD, really good flamethrower effect.. but it doesnt replace TP yet for me :(
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by cgireal: Hi Dann, have you used Xparticles? I am searching the web for a simple example of Xparticles being able to produce a spark type behaviour - (particles emiting from the point of collision of other scene objects)

This is a simple sort of think most users would expect to do, no? after two days with x-particles I can see no way to do this, it seems more motion gfx oriented.. and the UI/user experience exhibits no logic,

It is a great way to drive TFD, really good flamethrower effect.. but it doesnt replace TP yet for me :(



Hi cgireal

Make sure you post any questions you have about XP on the X-particles forums

http://www.x-particle.com/forum/ind...00c680db92a403d

Mike and Steve are here on cgtalk but you will definitey get some help there if they miss you here.

I knocked this shot out quickly---it may be helpful (and it may not be what you are looking for). Not sure what you are after--are you trying to get an automated/procedural spark effect that is triggered by collision?

XP spark test

If this is what you are after--I'll upload the file.
 
  08 August 2013
Slightly revised.

Movie

Here is the file.
Attached Files
File Type: zip XP_SPARKS.c4d.zip (66.9 KB, 24 views)
 
  08 August 2013
I think what he's talking about is particles being emitted upon the collision of objects -- like from the friction of the contact. This is possible with X-Particles, though perhaps not as directly as it could be: http://www.3danvil.com/temp/sparks.mov

What I did was generate particles on the platonic object and then have those particles spawn on collision with the floor object.
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by oatz: Hello, I'm evaluating C4D as an alternative and found Thinking Particles seems to be neutered from the one cebas sells. I understand that it was released in 2002 with R8, but was wondering if those have followed it's development, has it ever been updated? Is it something that bothers C4D users or something they wish for?

The base fo CINEMA 4D TO is indeed the old max TP from ca. 2002. It was never identical though.
The biggest difference is that TP in CINEMA 4D does not use it's own node system, this makes for a much tighter integration than in max.
Even though TP itself did not have many changes over time, it still improved by beeing able to interact with many of the new things that went into CINEMA 4D. It's possible to make TP interact with MoGraph, Dynamics, Hair, Sound etc. You will find a couple of examples on this in the content library among the TP Preset examples.
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  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by AdamT: I think what he's talking about is particles being emitted upon the collision of objects -- like from the friction of the contact. This is possible with X-Particles, though perhaps not as directly as it could be: http://www.3danvil.com/temp/sparks.mov

What I did was generate particles on the platonic object and then have those particles spawn on collision with the floor object.


that´s a nice and simple way. You can do this by expresso as well:
http://www.p.maicats.de/dyn_trigger3.mov

file: http://www.p.maicats.de/dyn_trigger3.zip

but if he just wants sparks on collision - the collision tag has a "spawn on collision" section perhaps a simple spawning is enough. Just take care you choose enough particles for spawning and if you set spawning on collision point to face normal, you should set a value for spread as well or all spawns will be same position.
 
  08 August 2013
Thanks guys. Adam's method is super-elegant, very ingenious! I was going to use the Xpresso solution as well, as it's a more direct method, but Lothar beat me to it. With that, you don't need to spawn at all, there's a new trigger mode in the emitter (still in beta) which was intended exactly for things like this.

Of course, the Xpresso method requires dynamics, but those who have a C4D version without that can still use Adam's method.

Steve
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  08 August 2013
Another solution would be Effex 2.0 (see my sig for a link). It has massive particle tools as well. For simple sparking you could even just use the PLE version. The example files also include a collision spawning example.
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  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by Srek: The base fo CINEMA 4D TO is indeed the old max TP from ca. 2002. It was never identical though.
The biggest difference is that TP in CINEMA 4D does not use it's own node system, this makes for a much tighter integration than in max.
Even though TP itself did not have many changes over time, it still improved by beeing able to interact with many of the new things that went into CINEMA 4D. It's possible to make TP interact with MoGraph, Dynamics, Hair, Sound etc. You will find a couple of examples on this in the content library among the TP Preset examples.


I would be interested in knowing if C4D users would be interested in paying an extra $1500 per license for a TP upgrade (No one ever looks at how much TP actually costs) in that case it might be worth Maxon's time
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The views expressed in this post are by no means the opinion of those making the post or of any one person in particular.
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by chi: I would be interested in knowing if C4D users would be interested in paying an extra $1500 per license for a TP upgrade (No one ever looks at how much TP actually costs) in that case it might be worth Maxon's time


That is not funny. For customers who payed for almost every update, since R8.5, your comment might be offensive.

cheers

celke
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by celke: That is not funny. For customers who payed for almost every update, since R8.5, your comment might be offensive.

cheers

celke

It's normal. Edwin told that if users want new version of tp, maxon should have contract with cebas. Maxon does not want, why, i don't know.
I asked him about tp 1-2 years ago. Situation is same.
Khye, learn x-particles, navie effex, python.

Last edited by ilay : 08 August 2013 at 07:01 PM.
 
  08 August 2013
Originally Posted by celke: That is not funny. For customers who payed for almost every update, since R8.5, your comment might be offensive.

cheers

celke


Then I'm sorry they are so easily offended.

but if they were actual thinking particles users they would have had to pay Cebas for updates for every version or TP regardless, and those were probably on par with the price of a C4D upgrade on it's own.
I think MAXON did a huge favor adding in TP even in it's current state, yes, I totally admit that it doesn't have all the bells and whistles as the current version of TP but my point is simple. TP is a large, somewhat clunky, mostly expensive software, operated by a completely separate entity, coded around / towards a totally different software. If Cebas was willing to sell the code again, or enter into a licensing deal with MAXON, the financial gain (Increased sales) would have to outweigh the cost of licensing + development + support.

Even if you look at max, they integrated a hampered version of particle flow to provide users with an alternative to TP and then axed upkeep. This is a pretty common occurrence when companies purchase code.

Now being a loyal customer to MAXON is great, but loyalty doesn't equate to faster development of a single feature, but rather towards the company as a whole, consider that your upgrade is going towards many more things than just 1 feature, this could be anything from new developers to just paying the power bill.

There is no denying that without that loyalty CINEMA would not have seen a huge number of features introduced and even huge shifts in the underlying codebase that help usher cinema into the future. These are things that could not have been done without continued support and I'm sure they appreciate that.

But again, it still doesn't affect the development of single features, especially when you are asking for them to expend a lot of time (porting code) and money (licensing / lump sum) on a part of CINEMA with a relatively small user base.

If anything I think the great folks at Insydium have shown us that it is easier / more cost effective to just develop a totally new particle engine...otherwise they could have just created a port of thinking particles.

And for clarity, I am not speaking officially on maxon's behalf, as I do not have the details on financial accounts or back-room dealings.
But I do know that code sales aren't cheap, especially an outright purchase, and licensing is problematic.
And as an artist I know to choose projects based on the return they bring.
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The views expressed in this post are by no means the opinion of those making the post or of any one person in particular.

Last edited by chi : 08 August 2013 at 07:46 PM.
 
  08 August 2013
At this point, C4D's TP is so long in the tooth (for whatever technical or financial reasons), I'd rather see it moved to legacy status and introduce a whole new next-gen particle system. Kinda like what Maya did with all the "nStuff".
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