Plugincafe, pleas clarify once more

Become a member of the CGSociety

Connect, Share, and Learn with our Large Growing CG Art Community. It's Free!

THREAD CLOSED
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 07 July 2013   #1
Plugincafe, please clarify once more

Hy there,

I guess the dev's can still remember the following thread:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=1030178

There we are, more than a year later. Last week I put two questions on the forum and just for fun, I had a look at how good the support now is.

Well, at least 3 pages long I read threads, but not a single answer from Maxon. The first one I encountered is from the 06 May from Matthias Bober. Since then, there are 55 new questions in the forum. So I guess... my odds are not very good to get an answer.

How was that with, yes, we will improve the support?

The plugincafe is a graveyard for questions related to the sdk... nothing more. Still the same people on there giving answers if they can, but nothing to see from the support.

So, please... clarify again. Is this the official place to get support? Then why are there no active members from Maxon on the forum?

André

Last edited by maxx981 : 07 July 2013 at 03:41 PM.
 
Old 07 July 2013   #2
want to buy shiny clean kitchens ? veeeeeeeery cheap in Birmingham. also my friend here does agree, lolrofl.gold2000.lulz is THE best source for cheap diablo 3 gold.
__________________
There are holes in the sky. Where the rain gets in.
But they're ever so small. That's why the rain is thin.
 
Old 07 July 2013   #3
Don't get me started again on the ^%*(&(! kitchen spam at Plugin Cafe. I swear, there were many more spam posts the other day than real ones. I'd be happy if they just put that right, for a start. Yannick says they are working on it, really hope they get a move on.

Steve
__________________
Steve Pedler personal site www.microbion.co.uk
X-Particles: www.x-particle.com
 
Old 07 July 2013   #4
...yes, the kitchen stuff... at least we can see, when they have a look at the forum. The last week, they for sure never had a look.

Cheers,
André
 
Old 07 July 2013   #5
I was optimistic after they hired Yannick. And he started answering questions at a pretty good pace. He helped me a lot when he first started....Then he sorta just disappeared. And now he's almost non-existent.

My heart sank when he wrote this reply to me some months back: "I'll try to create some examples if I get a chance".
The first thing that popped into my head was WTF!
Isn't creating examples the very thing you were hired for in the first place?
Obviously not.
I have a feeling that Maxon either pulled him into the development team so now he's too busy for the docs and support. Or he's only working part time for Maxon.

Maxon seems to have this on going problem with their support and documentation employees.
It's either Maxon's fault for being too restrictive in what they let their SDK support people do/change.
Or
They are hiring people that would rather be a dev. writing code, than writing documentation and examples. Which is understandable.
I've never been able to figure out who is at fault. Or what the real story is.

I've grabbed as much info I could get while Yannick was active.
I've probably got roughly 3/4 of the SDK converted into examples that I can use now.
But I've still got tons of questions about things like spline callbacks and things like that that are not obvious without seeing a full working example.
The forum members have really stepped up. But I feel like they are being overly relied upon. And there's certain things that only the support people can answer.

-ScottA
__________________
My Gallery
 
Old 07 July 2013   #6
The basic problem is that the SDK is complicated,very diverse and free of charge. Putting anyone on SDK support full time costs money (a salery) and hell yes, who ever it is, is dreaming of being somewhere else. If you have the skill to offer anything that anyone would be interested in, you are not gonna want to be a full time forum moderator on an awful forum that you neither own or have any commercial interest in. Its basically a shit job, with crap pay (if any), no reward and no love and no candy. Thats why in the last 10+ years it hardly ever blossemed. You only have to look at the docs, to see that there is no love or passion going on here. The only way to resolve the bleekness around SDK support is for Maxon to charge for the support. You want to know something, buy a support ticket or buy some kind of support contract and have some well paid and enthusiastic proffesional with an interest in your matter advise you. Otherwise, nothing is gonna change, why would it?
You are bascally getting what you pay for with the SDK support.....nothing.

regards
Paul Everett

Last edited by tapaul : 07 July 2013 at 06:36 PM.
 
Old 07 July 2013   #7
I can understand the lack of support, but on the other hand regular spam postings have been there for years and i find it quite ridiculous that this has been allowed to go on for so long. It is after all the official dev support forum and can be publicly viewed.
__________________
www.welter-4d.de
 
Old 07 July 2013   #8
Originally Posted by MWelter: I can understand the lack of support, but on the other hand regular spam postings have been there for years and i find it quite ridiculous that this has been allowed to go on for so long. It is after all the official dev support forum and can be publicly viewed.


It used to be irritating but tolerable, about 2-3 a week kind of thing, but recently (ever since someone posted about the developer's kitchen, which is where it got picked up by spambots perhaps) it's become truly ridiculous. It does not reflect at all well on Maxon as a company.
__________________
Steve Pedler personal site www.microbion.co.uk
X-Particles: www.x-particle.com
 
Old 07 July 2013   #9
Howdy,

Could it be that everyone at Maxon is busy with gearing up for the next version release? Support at plugin cafe always seems to fade around this time of the year.

Plugin cafe has always stated that it's not there to teach anyone how to program, but only to support SDK specific questions. I've noticed that the more I learn about C++ from other resources, the fewer questions I need to ask at plugin cafe, which is certainly less frustrating.

Adios,
Cactus Dan
__________________
It doesn't matter what people say about you, just as long as they're talking about you.

cactus3d.com, cactus3d-Plugins, CD Character Plugins forum
 
Old 07 July 2013   #10
Originally Posted by Cactus Dan: Howdy,

Could it be that everyone at Maxon is busy with gearing up for the next version release? Support at plugin cafe always seems to fade around this time of the year.

Plugin cafe has always stated that it's not there to teach anyone how to program, but only to support SDK specific questions. I've noticed that the more I learn about C++ from other resources, the fewer questions I need to ask at plugin cafe, which is certainly less frustrating.

Adios,
Cactus Dan


Saludos!

It is pretty clear that the support is even weaker now, but the problem is, weaker? Is that even possible?

That they don't want to teach you any language is understandable. More C++ knowledge also clearly helps in understanding how the API works. I also make mistakes in C++ and sometimes think, oh, this must be wrong. But in such a case, an answer is given fast.

But it is about the general lack of information about Cinema related concepts in nearly all parts of the SDK. No matter what C++ whizz you are, you just can't know that stuff.

If they just did a good support for 1 year, they could have incorporated all that gained knowledge about the problems back into the API and I guess we would not have these problems. As those concepts are valid since many, many versions of cinema, we could have a fantastic documentation since years... and finally stop working with trial&error for a lot of stuff.

I just can't understand, why you would expose such an API and then completely ignore anyone who wants to work with it.

Cheers,
André
 
Old 07 July 2013   #11
i would like to know how other companies manage this.
__________________

 
Old 07 July 2013   #12
^ Most other docs have small examples below their sdk definitions. The C4D docs usually don't.
That's the most obvious difference.

In the C4D docs. They spend a lot of the page space telling you a lot about what parameter types go in with parameter. Which is helpful...But not as helpful as seeing a small example.
If you can't figure out how to use the code. Knowing the types of the object is no help at all.
Not to mention that when you see a working example. You can usually see what type of object it is too without being told what type it is.

When it comes to using other people's code(sdk's). It's all about showing working examples.
Which is why you see so many people post code examples in the forums to answer a question.
Most modern sdk's I've seen QT, JavaFX, etc...are now using a lot of examples in their docs.

-ScottA
__________________
My Gallery
 
Old 07 July 2013   #13
Originally Posted by Scott Ayers: ^ Most other docs have small examples below their sdk definitions. The C4D docs usually don't.
That's the most obvious difference.

In the C4D docs. They spend a lot of the page space telling you a lot about what parameter types go in with parameter. Which is helpful...But not as helpful as seeing a small example.
If you can't figure out how to use the code. Knowing the types of the object is no help at all.
Not to mention that when you see a working example. You can usually see what type of object it is too without being told what type it is.

When it comes to using other people's code(sdk's). It's all about showing working examples.
Which is why you see so many people post code examples in the forums to answer a question.
Most modern sdk's I've seen QT, JavaFX, etc...are now using a lot of examples in their docs.

-ScottA


QFA. More examples in the C4D Python docs for example would make a huge difference for me.
MEL is so easy to learn IMO because the docs are stuffed with examples, pretty much every command has them. Same thing with the Maya Python docs, see this for example, I'd kill to have this in Cinema. Click on pretty much any command here and you'll see an example of usage at the bottom.
http://download.autodesk.com/us/may...thon/index.html

Cheers,
Brian

Last edited by Horganovski : 07 July 2013 at 01:16 AM.
 
Old 07 July 2013   #14
@Horganovski

I mentioned this when Python first appeared at the plugincafe. There doesn't appear to be any concept that people learn by example.

The few examples there are, mostly range from difficult to obscure. Yes, explanation of each parameter is what you'd expect, but to have that, and that only through 99% of the SDK is only going to allow the few 'programmers' amongst the thousands of users to take advantage of the information. For an app that is all about creativity, this seems a great loss of potential.

Last edited by deepshade : 07 July 2013 at 06:16 AM.
 
Old 07 July 2013   #15
Originally Posted by Horganovski: QFA. More examples in the C4D Python docs for example would make a huge difference for me.
MEL is so easy to learn IMO because the docs are stuffed with examples, pretty much every command has them. Same thing with the Maya Python docs, see this for example, I'd kill to have this in Cinema. Click on pretty much any command here and you'll see an example of usage at the bottom.
http://download.autodesk.com/us/may...thon/index.html

Cheers,
Brian


well,

despite the fact that i do strongly agree that there are some major problems with maxons SDK 'handling' (just call it that way, due to the lack of a proper term for it), i do not agree that python is badly documented. i do not know the maya sdk, but the linked page does not look very promising. I do know the xsi sdk and the whole concept of that api is much more complicated and user unfriendly than maxon python sdk. the clean OO approach of the maxon sdk and the broad coverage of the c4d api are pretty outstanding.

also the sphinx documentation of the python sdk is in its concept very well structured ( far better than the given mel example and also much better than c4ds own cpp sdk which presenting more or less the same information). as a plus sphinx documentations do feel very natural for a python sdk, as it is also used for the python documentation itself.

on the downside of the python sdk are a tremendous amount of typos in the sdk documentation and bugs in the sdk itself. also the manner in which the api is being updated can be called erratic at best. rather pointless classes and methods are being added, while other important classes and methods are still missing. best example for that is the newly introduced snapping "module". module in quotation marks, as the whole module is rather pointless, as most of its functions could be accomplished in python without that module, while the most important class - the snapping core - has not been wrapped. here does rise the question, why not another smaller , but more useful part of cpp sdk has been wrapped instead, if there has been only a limited amount of time to add a new features to the r14 sdk.

the most unforgivable mistake is IMHO not providing the sdk as an online version. there have been plenty requests for it and answer has always been, that this is something they definitely want to do, but nothing has ever happened. i cannot see any good reason for that, except for maxons almost neurotic aversion to anything internet based ( there secret company motto seems to be ' in carrier pigeons we do trust' ).

and as a personal note, except from the already mentioned plugin cafe spam, i cannot understand why maxon has deleted my python sdk bug report / python sdk misinformation thread, without any reason or warning, as i was only trying to provide an alternative source of information.

or to keep it short - the python c4d sdk its great to outstanding at its core, but it is getting more worse from version to version. sadly a very common problem in the realm of maxon software imho.
__________________
There are holes in the sky. Where the rain gets in.
But they're ever so small. That's why the rain is thin.

Last edited by littledevil : 07 July 2013 at 07:48 AM.
 
Thread Closed share thread



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.