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Old 07 July 2013   #61
Originally Posted by dann_stubbs: how does the TR Server handle this?

If a client goes down suddenly, the buckets will hang in the picture viewer and be reassigned automatically to a different machine (or to the same client if it restarts in time and the other clients are busy).

As for team testing, it has been tested intensively actually, maybe Srek can comment more on this, since Maxon setup their own farm/network with multiple users?

The issues here are the current limitations, which hopefully will be remedied in the future. First iteration of a new tool and all...
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Old 07 July 2013   #62
More just guessing, but it looks from the TR interface like it can detect which machines are active on the network, so I'm sure it must be smart enough to reassign frames/buckets if a machine drops out.
 
Old 07 July 2013   #63
Originally Posted by fluffouille: If a client goes down suddenly, the buckets will hang in the picture viewer and be reassigned automatically to a different machine (or to the same client if it restarts in time and the other clients are busy).

As for team testing, it has been tested intensively actually, maybe Srek can comment more on this, since Maxon setup their own farm/network with multiple users?

The issues here are the current limitations, which hopefully will be remedied in the future. First iteration of a new tool and all...



yes but what criteria is used to reassign automatically?

if it is the timeout then users with high timeout settings/needs as described will have the issues mentioned to contend with.

the problem being first iteration of a new tool replacing a tried and tested tool. (the first iteration is not really a great justification honestly...)

it's like maxon adding a new render engine that will add the ability to have shadows "later on in the future" but they take away the current working render engine now. yeah it may work out for some users... but.......

thanks again for your info,

dann
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Old 07 July 2013   #64
Originally Posted by AdamT: More just guessing, but it looks from the TR interface like it can detect which machines are active on the network, so I'm sure it must be smart enough to reassign frames/buckets if a machine drops out.


that is what i am wondering, usually there is a sort of heartbeat function.

but that too can have different needs - say for those network rendering wi fi users and the heart beat timeout setting is too quick for the wi fi latency or interference they are having - the render clients would be dropping off and coming back on all the time.

*unless there was a user definable heartbeat setting then users can tailor it to their individual needs

that could work because then you could have a 180 minute timeout for big data transfers etc, but a more reasonable say 2 minute heartbeat to determine if a client is DOA or MIA and needs to be reassigned or dropped off.

(most stand alone render managers have heartbeat settings like that, or at least my standalone render manager for maya did)

dann
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Old 07 July 2013   #65
Originally Posted by dann_stubbs: the problem being first iteration of a new tool replacing a tried and tested tool. (the first iteration is not really a great justification honestly...)

I'm not trying to justify anything, just stating the fact that it's a first iteration and thus more limited in some aspects. Hopefully a lot of these restrictions can be lifted in future updates.

I understand it doesn't solve your issues, though.
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Old 07 July 2013   #66
Originally Posted by fluffouille: I'm not trying to justify anything, just stating the fact that it's a first iteration and thus more limited in some aspects. Hopefully a lot of these restrictions can be lifted in future updates.

I understand it doesn't solve your issues, though.


thank you fluffy and it was nothing personal or meant as an attack at you or the justification - i just don't think there should be "any" excuses for taking away some working features and providing nothing in exchange back to the users.

because say next year when team render 2.0 comes out with these features back in - will that really be a justification to pay for the upgrade to get back functionality that was taken from us?

(and by that time those who DO use or NEED these features that are now missing will have had to find a workaround or other solution, possibly an expensive one like a third party render manager - so what value then will these features be in team render 2.0 when now those who needed them most have other solutions so they really don't need them now)

just think of any other industry where that would be accepted - car 2.0 we left the doors off due to time of development sorry! (of course you will need to pay for car 3.0 to get them back)

thanks again for your info,

dann
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Old 07 July 2013   #67
Originally Posted by Srek: It's just that the core of CINEMA 4D is not supporting this. Implementing it would require an extraordinary amount of development time and testing. So it's not impossible, but impractical.
Cheers
Björn


Thank you for the answer, Srek
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Old 07 July 2013   #68
Originally Posted by dann_stubbs: thank you fluffy and it was nothing personal or meant as an attack at you or the justification - i just don't think there should be "any" excuses for taking away some working features and providing nothing in exchange back to the users.


huh? this happens ALL the time.

new gi, new dynamics, all of those things replaced already existing features, all were introduced with version 1.0 limitations and all of them were brought up to scratch and were used as the base for new features not available before.

i think it is a perfectly accepted thing in computing that sometimes, if you need to get modern features, you go back to square one, get the foundations sorted and then build higher.

i know for a fact that you will remember when apple switched from os 9 to X and we had the most awesome new pre-emptive multi-tasking modern os ever except they forgot to include the spring-loaded folders...

it happens, it is painful, it goes away.

cheers, simon w.

edit: i almost forgot my favourite one from avid, 'thank you for purchasing version 1.0 of xsi, here is your free copy of softimage so you can carry on poly modelling...'

Last edited by Simon Wicker : 07 July 2013 at 04:16 PM.
 
Old 07 July 2013   #69
Originally Posted by Simon Wicker: huh? this happens ALL the time.

new gi, new dynamics, all of those things replaced already existing features, all were introduced with version 1.0 limitations and all of them were brought up to scratch and were used as the base for new features not available before.

i think it is a perfectly accepted thing in computing that sometimes, if you need to get modern features, you go back to square one, get the foundations sorted and then build higher.

i know for a fact that you will remember when apple switched from os 9 to X and we had the most awesome new pre-emptive multi-tasking modern os ever except they forgot to include the spring-loaded folders...

it happens, it is painful, it goes away.

cheers, simon w.

edit: i almost forgot my favourite one from avid, 'thank you for purchasing version 1.0 of xsi, here is your free copy of softimage so you can carry on poly modelling...'



just cause it happens doesn't mean i or anyone else likes it or it does not create potentially huge difficulty in our workflows. (and spring loaded folders were hardly a deal breaker compared to losing the ability to log in remotely, multiple users, queue control of jobs etc...)

you yourself said it - at least avid GAVE you for FREE the tools to keep poly modeling - what if they told you, sorry we took away your poly tools until further notice, go find another way on your own to poly model and next year you can pay to upgrade to get your poly tools back from us. THAT is what is happening here and that is an accurate comparison not missing a small negligible feature like spring loaded folders.

based on your justification of avid doing it and it being acceptable way to work - is maxon going to give everyone FREE third party render managers and FREE command line access to C4D to replace the missing tools? if so that's good, i'm in. what are my choices for free third party render managers that provide the missing features, wheres my selection list to choose?

or is everyone who used those tools supposed to go out and drop a thousand or more on royal render or something of their own money and then need the command line from maxon (i guess that is more money to spend?) all just to get multiple user logins and user control back again?

sometimes the defense arguments given baffles me...

dann
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Old 07 July 2013   #70
Originally Posted by dann_stubbs: just cause it happens doesn't mean i or anyone else likes it or it does not create potentially huge difficulty in our workflows. (and spring loaded folders were hardly a deal breaker compared to losing the ability to log in remotely, multiple users, queue control of jobs etc...)


that was a slightly facetious example and you KNOW that! the transition to os X has involved losing and regaining HUGE swathes of functionality, missing drivers, fonts, etc, etc, lost hardware, incompatibilities. expensive audio cards becoming useless bricks. trillion dollar scanners being used as doorstops.

that doesn't even get us started on the transition to intel v.s. powerpc and everything that was gained and lost by that.

working with hardware and software from ALL companies often involves these kind of painful transitions.

i can remember the huge frustration of not being able to run a native version of photoshop for 18 months after the initial version of os X shipped. but look, here we are, it is 2013, i have my 64bit native photoshop and all is well. the world didn't end.

cheers, simon w.
 
Old 07 July 2013   #71
Originally Posted by Simon Wicker: that was a slightly facetious example and you KNOW that! the transition to os X has involved losing and regaining HUGE swathes of functionality, missing drivers, fonts, etc, etc, lost hardware, incompatibilities. expensive audio cards becoming useless bricks. trillion dollar scanners being used as doorstops.

that doesn't even get us started on the transition to intel v.s. powerpc and everything that was gained and lost by that.

working with hardware and software from ALL companies often involves these kind of painful transitions.

i can remember the huge frustration of not being able to run a native version of photoshop for 18 months after the initial version of os X shipped. but look, here we are, it is 2013, i have my 64bit native photoshop and all is well. the world didn't end.

cheers, simon w.


you left out the entire part about avid providing you the missing tools FREE until they could workaround implementing them in the new version.

basically you avoided the entire issue

have a great day!

dann
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Old 07 July 2013   #72
Originally Posted by dann_stubbs: on OSX at least the CPU's are PEGGED to max when it is doing the conversion from b3d to output format... and it does not even need to be 32 bit massive res EXIF for that to happen either... when files are streaming in fast the CPU's are overloaded, some of this seems to be dependent on the output file type but still i see it all the time, next time i'll screen grab the CPU monitor and show it

then add in the sending out of say a very typical gig or two project file and texures to 32+ render clients as well as the receiving of the data files back and it's not really a light load CPU issue at all...


ok here is my CPU monitor on a quad core (dual 2 x 2 core 2.6 ghz) xeon OSX 10.6.8 with 9GB ram that acts as my NET Server


first one is a smaller job you can see the frame start up and then taper off

next image is showing a longer render and you can see the frames coming in and then essentially overwhelming the CPU


these are tiny project folders too - if they were multi GB projects it can get pretty laggy - would you enjoy working in your C4D simultaneously like that?

hope its a good FYI

dann

(i have no idea how to put images in full size, hope these at least work)
Attached Images
File Type: png Screen shot 2013-07-25 at 6.32.03 AM.png (16.3 KB, 57 views)
File Type: png Screen shot 2013-07-25 at 1.09.43 PM.png (20.8 KB, 41 views)
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Old 07 July 2013   #73
I guess it's to be determined how this works with TR. The project that you send out doesn't have to be located on your local machine and apparently the nodes can distribute between themselves, so everything doesn't have to be assembled by the initiating computer. It could have little to no impact on the initiating computer if you exclude it from TR. Or not....
 
Old 07 July 2013   #74
Originally Posted by dann_stubbs: you left out the entire part about avid providing you the missing tools FREE until they could workaround implementing them in the new version.

basically you avoided the entire issue

have a great day!

dann


actually i was clarifying YOUR comment about spring loaded folders not being equivalent to NET render.

your statements all made it sound like this is a wholly unprecedented state of affairs and i pointed out that actually for anyone who has been in this business for any length of time (like you and me) this isn't the case.

we know that companies big and small (like apple, adobe, maxon and AVID) sometimes for technical reasons need to start with a clean slate.

during the transition things are uncomfortable and painful, but this doesn't last forever and at the end things are better than they were before.

as users of cinema we have been through this with GI, character animation, dynamics, alembic, fbx, etc, etc, etc.

this is not new. it is annoying. maxon will deal with it as quickly as possible. do you really not believe that, dann?

cheers, simon w.
 
Old 07 July 2013   #75
Originally Posted by Simon Wicker: actually i was clarifying YOUR comment about spring loaded folders not being equivalent to NET render.

your statements all made it sound like this is a wholly unprecedented state of affairs and i pointed out that actually for anyone who has been in this business for any length of time (like you and me) this isn't the case.

we know that companies big and small (like apple, adobe, maxon and AVID) sometimes for technical reasons need to start with a clean slate.

during the transition things are uncomfortable and painful, but this doesn't last forever and at the end things are better than they were before.

as users of cinema we have been through this with GI, character animation, dynamics, alembic, fbx, etc, etc, etc.

this is not new. it is annoying. maxon will deal with it as quickly as possible. do you really not believe that, dann?

cheers, simon w.


I don't think this would be as big an issue if they weren't killing the current functional Net Render altogether while introducing a new 1.0 paradigm. That seems like a huge mistake. Your argument is valid, but the problem is rendering is what it all comes down to which is different than modeling etc. And we're talking about the only way we can render large projects. There is no other way, even if we use another render engine like Vray, we have to use a Net Rendering solution and you're killing that and sticking us with a 1.0 solution that "Maxon will fix and improve eventually". All we wanted was some improvements to the current Net Render. TR may be superior in the long run, but what are we supposed to do if it now causes us to deliver our projects in 5 days instead of 3? Stop complaining because you'll fix it later? You've created something that many of us who have studios with several employees now rely on to feed their families. Forcing something on us that may cripple our productivity shouldn't be taken lightly and dismissed as something people needed to find to complain about. This is genuinely worrying us.
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