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Old 06-22-2013, 01:04 AM   #1
radmotions
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Ugly faces after Text extrustion (Please Help!!)

Hey guys! I'm glad to be here. I am struggling a bit with this error I have. (see attached image)

I noticed that some fonts create wierd lines and faces once extruded using Nurbs or MOText. Once I added the bevel you can see how discombobulated the letter looks because of the polygons. I didn't dig too deep and I figured someone on this forum knew what exactly this problem was and how to fix it. Until one of you can help me out I'll keep playing around with this. If someone can actually explain to me why C4D does this would be great too. Many thanks in advance!!
 
Old 06-22-2013, 02:21 PM   #2
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Howdy,

Did you forget to attach the image?

Adios,
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Old 06-22-2013, 06:18 PM   #3
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Thanks Cactus Dan! How embarrassing for my first post at cgsociety. lol



I did some google searches and even looked in the C4D manual. According to Maxon they touched on this issue exactly. They said that this will happen and if it does it means you are using a low quality font. The only way around it is to try a different font. Maybe any Cinema 4D gurus have some things to add? I mean, something like this should be an easy fix.
 
Old 06-22-2013, 09:53 PM   #4
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Howdy,

You can make the text spline into an editable spline and manually clean up the vertices.

Adios,
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Old 06-22-2013, 11:03 PM   #5
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Aha! rep for you

Thanks.
 
Old 06-23-2013, 01:01 AM   #6
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change the intermediate points to natural, and be very careful with your fillet cap radius. Also don't listen to Maxon's poor font explanation. I mean there can be really bad fonts but I can achieve this same issue with every font imaginable including very notable ones like Garamond Arial and Helvetica. change the filleted caps to just caps, or turning off constraint usually make it disappear so it's even more evidence that is Maxon's terrible fillet capping method.

There is a simple explanation to it though, and it explains why it is also more common when constrain is turned on. Basically when you have a fillet that comes in too far, you may encounter a situation where two of the inner points overlap each other. This isn't easily noticeable in the fillet itself as it already is an abrupt change in shading, and it's usually fairly small. However once two points anywhere on a fillet overlap then the cap will triangulate.

If you need a filleted cap and you must have constrain on (which for me is usually the way I want to work with text) Then you have a few choices on how to try and solve it:

1) Reduce the size of the fillet. This will almost always work, but unfortunately with very sharp corners or worse yet tight rounded corners, you will have to go really tiny so that it's almost pointless to have the fillet.

2) Tweak the adaptive distribution of points along the text spline. With adaptive, try going up or down a few degrees. It's a total crapshoot with adaptive as smaller degrees means more points and higher means fewer points the initial assumption most will have is the fewer points means less likely to overlap, but sadly at a loss of quality in curve shapes. Lower can fix the problem though as the points the overlap might shift enough that they no longer overlap, and eventually as you get super fine, like 1 or 2 degrees, its so dense the cap will typically be smooth, but now at a cost of efficiency as you've made a really dense mesh. Sometimes though just changing ad half degree either way will fix it without dramatically affecting the quality or polygon counts. Testing here with Adobe Calson Pro Bold with default MoText settings, 8 and 9 degrees both fail on the letter X, but 7 and 10 degree both work, and whats really funny is 8.2 to 8.7 degrees all work.

3) Change the distribution type to Natural. I also like Uniform for organic shapes but with text uniform at lower qualities alters the shape too much at corners. Natural much like adaptive tries to preserve detail areas while reducing subdivisions is straighter areas. Unlike adaptive Natural also tries to keep subdivisions as equal and evenly spread as possible, more like Uniform. It is the best of both worlds imo, and my usually go to spline inetermediate point method. Just switching often fixes it, but if not then you need to change the number of points, which runs into the same pros and cons as the angle value for adaptive did.

4)There are times Natural simply won't make a good result, or Adaptive simply won't but those are usually with really large extreme fillets. In those rare cases try not using constrain. It sadly does alter the overall shape of the outside silhouette, but really if your doing extreme fillets your probably less concerned with the integrity of the original font to begin with.


Whoever at Maxon told you it was because of crappy fonts is simply wrong. I wish Maxon would look at their cap generation system more carefully and acknowledge it's problems as they are the only ones who can really fix this.
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Old 06-23-2013, 01:30 PM   #7
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Thank you LucentDreams for the explanation.
 
Old 06-25-2013, 08:45 PM   #8
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For things like text, I always keep the splines set to adaptive. However, sometimes in cases like what you're experiencing, I change the cap faces from N-gons, to quads with a regular grid. You can adjust the pitch, to suite. I have found that not only will this solve many surface issues, but it can sometimes speed up rendering. I don't know why, but sometimes the N-gon faced text objects can slow down.
 
Old 06-25-2013, 10:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneather
For things like text, I always keep the splines set to adaptive. However, sometimes in cases like what you're experiencing, I change the cap faces from N-gons, to quads with a regular grid. You can adjust the pitch, to suite. I have found that not only will this solve many surface issues, but it can sometimes speed up rendering. I don't know why, but sometimes the N-gon faced text objects can slow down.


+1

Although, nothing really beats experimenting with spline types and its vertices number/angle before collapsing the extrusion into polys.

I find myself using the subdivided spline type for this to set a maximum length between vertices. Can help neaten up some faces if Adaptive isn't quite hitting that sweet spot.

Also remember to select all the points of the characters after collapsing & connecting, then use the Optimize command to help to fuse really close/unnecessary vertices and weld the caps to the edges/fillets.
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Old 06-26-2013, 12:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radmotions
They said that this will happen and if it does it means you are using a low quality font.


A font can't possibly be responsible for that. Its basically pot luck if the their triangulator can fill the outline well or not.

regards
Paul
 
Old 06-26-2013, 02:26 PM   #11
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As Kai mentioned earlier, the VAST majority of times when this happens it's because of crashing fillets, i.e., the fillet radius is too large and it's causing the fillet to intersect the cap in tight areas. Same thing causes fillets to fail in Rhino and other NURBS modelers.
 
Old 06-27-2013, 07:50 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamT
As Kai mentioned earlier, the VAST majority of times when this happens it's because of crashing fillets, i.e., the fillet radius is too large and it's causing the fillet to intersect the cap in tight areas. Same thing causes fillets to fail in Rhino and other NURBS modelers.


but clearly not the case in the image shown.

>The only way around it is to try a different font.
And this is indeed true (roll the dice again). But it has nothing to do with any 'font quality'.

It is a software issue that either gets some love and attention or not, depending on how important it is (or whatever)


regards
Paul

Last edited by tapaul : 06-27-2013 at 08:08 AM.
 
Old 06-27-2013, 08:22 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tapaul
but clearly not the case in the image shown.

>The only way around it is to try a different font.
And this is indeed true (roll the dice again). But it has nothing to do with any 'font quality'.

It is a software issue that either gets some love and attention or not, depending on how important it is (or whatever)


regards
Paul


Hey Paul,

you are a hell of a programmer
What if you write a new plugin for better text extrusion without those circumstances of bad face creations
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tapaul
but clearly not the case in the image shown.

>The only way around it is to try a different font.
And this is indeed true (roll the dice again). But it has nothing to do with any 'font quality'.

It is a software issue that either gets some love and attention or not, depending on how important it is (or whatever)


regards
Paul


Not the greatest resolution image, but I'd wager in this specific example that yes the size of the fillet isn't the issue. That said changing the font shouldn't be necessary, I've not encountered a font to date I can't get clean faces on, the challenge is how many polygons one can afford for those clean faces. My post was a thorough one and explained all the issues, and how to generally resolve them.

That said I do think maxon could improve the mesh generation and be more intelligent when it comes to extreme fillets especially we have modeling tools that do a better job (although our bevel isn't great in other ways) It's as you say though, how important is it, and for Maxon I'd say more important than most software companies as a huge portion of the bread and butter that the larger user bases of C4D make is from extrudes of things like logos and text. A better mesh generation in extrudes seems like it would be nice. Then again they could also argue they've been an ideal app for this for ages so clearly the problem hasn't been a big one.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:56 AM   #15
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>What if you write a new plugin
That's something the host app could just do slightly better. Its hard enough selling plugins that do things that c4d doesn't do. Spending time making something that is slightly better than what the host app does, would be a complete waste of time.

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