Important petition : connection between the renderqueue and the pictureviewer

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  04 April 2013
People need to learn to read, my point was not about petitions but about third party ones like pauls. Vent on it all you want it isn't maxon's, maxon doesn't have to acknowledge it or give a damn about it. My point was that maxon has an official method and that's what should be used. If maxon chose to do a poll great, if they choose to use a system where they receive suggestions read them and then choose whether or not they feel that's necessary, worth the time or investment, or lower priority than something else, that's their choice.

Even in Maxon's official system, which Paul should know well, testers often got this stupid idea that writing +1 was achieving something, but the only thing that helped in getting an idea implemented was to offer clear and concise information and good justifications. I can't access the system anymore but I can guarantee you there are probably 7 year old posts that have plenty of tester +1's typed in them that are still not implemented. The reasons why can be many, they don't get the suggestion because it wasn't conveyed well enough to get across possible language barriers, or mentality barriers (artist thinking versus coder/engineers). It's too complex to spend time on for such a small benefit, its a technology that someone holds a patent to and requires licensing, the ideal developer for it is busy on something else.

Joel's post is a prime example of whats falling apart in our society now in that the concept of a like or +1 or wearing a special colored shirt or changing a profile pic is a way of being an active participant and making a difference and that awareness is what matters most. We are all aware of poverty but it doesn't fix anything. These tactics are the laziest form of activism, which is ironic because activism literally contains the word active right there in it.

My whole point was Maxon's chosen there method of input, it is their official way of doing things and it is the only way your going to get your information directly to them. Using some thirdparty place to post stuff won't force maxon's hand in anyway. Joel's suggesting to use it as a contract to say I will now post this to maxon, thats not a bad idea, I believe that was essentially what I'd encouraged in my second post.

Treat it like we do letters to congress. Write up a well presented suggestion, heck even with pictures to aid, and then put that up where anyone else can easily grab the text and pics, and provide the link to the suggestion page. Then people can take 2 minutes, seriously thats it, to go to the page, put their email in, paste the text and such and send it to maxon. 50 people submit that and the database will fill up. Their database allows them to mark items that are similar and group them, but traditionally that requires someone at maxon reading each, remembering what similar suggestions might exist and grouping them. This way you've all posted an identical post it will be hard not recognize them as identical

Be smart about making a difference, don't think that adding a like makes any sort of difference.
__________________
Quote: "Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen
 
  04 April 2013
>Be smart about making a difference, don't think that adding a like makes any sort of difference.

its not about the votes, its about communication and being open.As I state in that forum , say your peice and then send it to Maxon. the point is to do it in the open, removing a layer of that smelly stuff. If that is effective in getting anything done, does not matter.It can not be any less effective than the current operation.

What you are encouraging kai, is that things just carry on as they are.I respectfully disagree.
 
  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by tapaul: >What you are encouraging kai, is that things just carry on as they are.I respectfully disagree.


it can be in that people who are already hurting for time like Joels example, will now waste there time here instead of actually sending it to maxon. How and when are these posts being sent to maxon, by who, how often. When is an idea detailed and refined enough. With few exceptions, the ones on the site already, are mostly to short and vague to be of much use by maxon. These are the kinds of posts we always see when a new beta tester joined.

I think the blurry reflection is a prime example, we have a short vague post, Several people each respond with totally different ideas of the post even means, yours with a sarcasm, and not a single one actually gives any useful detail on what needs to be implemented and how. Now you can argue the discussion will sort that out, and your not wrong there, but when, and how do we decide when it's refined enough to submit to Maxon. how do we make sure everyone who participated and those lurking actually act on the idea and pass it on.

Your post here on cgtalk about removing the sticky threads is yet another prime example. Whose post will be more useful yours or the detailed one I made.

Imo you've really just made a place for people to rant. If it makes people fell better, then sure I guess you've achieved something. When the next version of c4d comes out though, and most if not all of the concerns are unaddressed though what will you all do, rant some more? Or better yet something is implemented, like lets say a new bevel tool. Will you guys all jump for joy at how your new site saved the day, or be honest and admit that the idea posts, which are very detailed, have existed in Maxon's database for at least 6 years if my memory serves me, and that there were several bevel tool discussions and rants on the beta forum over the years too. It's just always been a lower priority for the developers that will work on that area. I'm no longer a part of beta so I don't know whats in store for R15, I left right before R14, so even this adobe thing was news to me (weird experience for me) but I do know enough that if and when a bevel tool does show up, be it september of 4 years form now, it's not because of that post on your site because that post has far less information then I've seen discussed even here on cgtalk previously and know for a fact that maxon developers have seen let alone what already exists in maxon's own systems.

You think I'm encouraging people to do nothing but leave things as is, no, but I'm also saying that we have no control over the maxon side, that their choice, but we do have control over people actually submitting their ideas to maxon. I know that my idea post count when I was a tester personally rivaled the general publics. The problem is that people don't post their suggestions enough to the proper system Maxon offers.
__________________
Quote: "Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen
 
  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by LucentDreams: People need to learn to read, my point was not about petitions but about third party ones like pauls. Vent on it all you want it isn't maxon's, maxon doesn't have to acknowledge it or give a damn about it. My point was that maxon has an official method and that's what should be used. If maxon chose to do a poll great, if they choose to use a system where they receive suggestions read them and then choose whether or not they feel that's necessary, worth the time or investment, or lower priority than something else, that's their choice.


I read what you wrote. I think someone needs a prescription for antidepressants, or maybe just a lesson in tact. And speaking of learning how to read, I might strongly recommend giving this a read.

Social Interaction with other Humans 101
But at least you are consistent in your forum syle and tone after all these years


Originally Posted by LucentDreams: Even in Maxon's official system, which Paul should know well, testers often got this stupid idea that writing +1 was achieving something, but the only thing that helped in getting an idea implemented was to offer clear and concise information and good justifications. I can't access the system anymore but I can guarantee you there are probably 7 year old posts that have plenty of tester +1's typed in them that are still not implemented. The reasons why can be many, they don't get the suggestion because it wasn't conveyed well enough to get across possible language barriers, or mentality barriers (artist thinking versus coder/engineers). It's too complex to spend time on for such a small benefit, its a technology that someone holds a patent to and requires licensing, the ideal developer for it is busy on something else.

Joel's post is a prime example of whats falling apart in our society now in that the concept of a like or +1 or wearing a special colored shirt or changing a profile pic is a way of being an active participant and making a difference and that awareness is what matters most. We are all aware of poverty but it doesn't fix anything. These tactics are the laziest form of activism, which is ironic because activism literally contains the word active right there in it.


Yes, my post about liking the fact that someone made an effort to set up a website where paying CUSTOMERS who have invested over a decade of their career and earnings into a tool that they love, can discuss how to make it better by sharing what their professional needs are for that tool is why the world is falling apart.

I am not suggesting that people refrain from contacting Maxon. I cant say I do it all the time, but my name is in the request and bug report database. Paul's point was well made concerning the idea that many other software companies host their own official forum for CUSTOMERS to suggest improvements of the software they pay for and use every day.What we have instead is a form to fill out. Its like voting for the king of the world and you don't know who the candidates are. Who knows if it will be acknowledged or considered? But we all know there is power in numbers.

I dont understand why there is so much of an uproar about this issue. And Kai, you mentioned previously that you dont really use C4D much these days and kind of suggested that you may not even be able to pay for an upgrade yourself. Why not just move on then? What interests you so much to stick around and berate us stupid peons who can't possibly have the intelligence, common sense or insider knowledge that you used to have? We all know you know your stuff and are skilled, talented and intelligent, but your forum persona is combatitive and very condescending.

Originally Posted by LucentDreams: My whole point was Maxon's chosen there method of input, it is their official way of doing things and it is the only way your going to get your information directly to them. Using some thirdparty place to post stuff won't force maxon's hand in anyway. Joel's suggesting to use it as a contract to say I will now post this to maxon, thats not a bad idea, I believe that was essentially what I'd encouraged in my second post.

Treat it like we do letters to congress. Write up a well presented suggestion, heck even with pictures to aid, and then put that up where anyone else can easily grab the text and pics, and provide the link to the suggestion page. Then people can take 2 minutes, seriously thats it, to go to the page, put their email in, paste the text and such and send it to maxon. 50 people submit that and the database will fill up. Their database allows them to mark items that are similar and group them, but traditionally that requires someone at maxon reading each, remembering what similar suggestions might exist and grouping them. This way you've all posted an identical post it will be hard not recognize them as identical

Be smart about making a difference, don't think that adding a like makes any sort of difference.


I was reading the OP's plea for help in this area and the rigamarole he's gone through which eventually led him to deciding to post on this forum. What would you do if you were him? Either give up if your requests go unheeded or switch software I guess, right? He mentions that he had already tried to do things the official way. Why thwart his efforts? If other paying customers who use this software to make their living want to take part in a discussion, why thwart their efforts?

I understand that there is an official, functioning method of requesting needed features or asking for bug fixes. But things do get overlooked or ignored. And when that happens people look for other ways of being heard.
 
  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by LucentDreams: ...The problem is that people don't post their suggestions enough to the proper system Maxon offers.


And if I were running a business that valued my customer's input and well being I would look at that fact and realize that maybe something needs to change...
 
  04 April 2013
so LucentDreams you say +1 or a Like won't save the world, you are right - point taken. But in the same post you suggest we copy the Problem description and make it count in the database. Mathematically this is +1 for me. of course in the database of maxon which is the right place. ...

Anyway I rather +1 for a software feature so i can spend the time writing a decent letter to my government, not messing up the water resources. (sorry I am drivting away from toppic).

What bothers me is that the suggestion page still is only text, sometimes its so difficult to describe a problem by words - showing a picture is a minimum of additional information I would like.
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  04 April 2013
I understand Kai's point but I disagree that +1, "vote", etc. is meaningless. One can put together the best thought-out, diagrammed, notated suggestion in the world, but if it's a great idea that only appeals to one, or a few, people, then it's probably not worth doing. OTOH, if you have the same proposal and 100 other users express strong support for ... that *should* mean something. Ideally, of course, the supporters would suggest refinements. And of course it's a good idea if this can be done *before* someone from on high says, "this is what we're doing and it's too late to make any changes."
 
  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by JoelOtron: I read what you wrote. I think someone needs a prescription for antidepressants, or maybe just a lesson in tact. And speaking of learning how to read, I might strongly recommend giving this a read.

Social Interaction with other Humans 101
But at least you are consistent in your forum syle and tone after all these years

I dont understand why there is so much of an uproar about this issue. And Kai, you mentioned previously that you dont really use C4D much these days and kind of suggested that you may not even be able to pay for an upgrade yourself. Why not just move on then? What interests you so much to stick around and berate us stupid peons who can't possibly have the intelligence, common sense or insider knowledge that you used to have? We all know you know your stuff and are skilled, talented and intelligent, but your forum persona is combatitive and very condescending.


+1

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  04 April 2013
some really interesting discussion here around the positive or negative effects of petitions and the like.
what i think has been overlooked slightly is the lack of response can also in itself lead to lack of suggestion submission...after awhile fatigue will probably set in...well i submitted stuff and who knows where it ended up...why did i bother type thinking. for me there is no doubt this process of submission can be improved...HOWEVER I also don't have that many suggestions on how...maybe i should just submit a request on the submission page to improve the process ;-)

maxon seem to me from the outside fairly decent at listening to the customers, there is always room for improvement granted, but think people are listening...how much notice they take is another matter for another day.

as joel mentions if i were running a company i'd want my customers feedback (i summarise).

So for me improve the system..it doesn't work for me...i think both camps have some really really valid points to the process...
clearly the process isn't broke...since suggestions work their way into newer releases...but it can be improved...i mean we are talking about an interface between the techies and the artists...hardly the most capable solution of improving the dialogue is it...its a techie solution to a problem an artist sees...fill a form in!! jeez. artist thinks whats this..words their suggestions..and techie thinks...jeez whats this suggestion i just got he didn't even quote the algo we use or which we could use.. SEE communication broke down... filed suggestion.
Techie provided no solution to Artist
Artist got no resolution from Techie
......corporates ask artist did we get what we want for this MSA....Hmmm renewal time.

so there is room for improvement of this system...i'll leave it to maxon to ponder what is affordable, practical but is actually a functional solution to a dialogue with their customers.

come on maxonia..YOU CAN DO IT
__________________
One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

Henry Moore
 
  04 April 2013
Damn. I got quoted and spelled combative wrong.

-1?
 
  04 April 2013
i feel a bad montage coming on...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ2HcRl4wSk
__________________
One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

Henry Moore
 
  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by mogh: What bothers me is that the suggestion page still is only text, sometimes its so difficult to describe a problem by words - showing a picture is a minimum of additional information I would like.


You bring up a good point about the text based only issue, I even mentioned the use of pics in my last post but you can't actually attach them only link to them, something maxon could easily improve to make the input from users more useful, allowing attachment of a file like pdf, zip movie or picture. Their system is capable of supporting that already so its really just the website's ability to upload such things that'd be needed.

What matters is clear and concise, and the majority of posts already on Paul's site show the same flaws, make c4d faster for instance, nice, very helpful. With Paul's sticky thread suggestion he had a good point, but I simply +1'd that, then they could kill all of them and I wouldn't be happy because they got rid of the think before you post and wip threads. I not only showed support but added to it and that's what needs to happen.

If it's already been said taking actual time to say it yourself still shows how important the issue is unlike a +1. But now I'm confused because everyone is defending +1 while Paul is saying it isn't about that at all, so already there's a conflict in terms of how you all see this system working.






Oh, for the record Joel, I never suggested I couldn't afford an upgrade (it'd have to be a full purchase anyways) Not sure how you interpreted that from my post to Paul about the ship metaphor.I mentioned the strangeness of having to buy it this next time around as I haven't had to pay for C4D with cash in ages. That said If you want to suggest which you did at least twice in that post, that I'm different because I haven't been a paying customer like you for the last decade though, you might wanna consider the equation of time and money. I easily clocked in a minimum of 20 hours a week any anytime in my 10 years of beta testing. lets do a ridiculously low rate of $10/hour of my time, that's still 200/week, and $5200/year of free time put into the product you use, and that's so strong on the generous side of things as I know I easily clocked well over 40 hours in a week many weeks testing during my freelance days prior to working at maxon.There's a small group of testers who can easily say the same. We all had our ups and downs but Alberto, MV, Per Anders prior to working at Maxon, and several other testers, they earn their license in unpaid hours of work that isn't on their freelance earning them pay and personal. Part of the reason I took on the job at Maxon was because I couldn't see myself persisting with those hours without a better justification like actually being employed by them and doing it during actual work hours.

If you want to suggest I was wrong about you misreading my post you put in quotations that I suggested petitions are stupid, but I in fact stated "Don't sign a stupid online petition that Maxon doesn't give a damn about." and "There's a proper method provided by the company, don't use a stupid online petition site that has nothing to do with the company." You stated that I said petitions are stupid, but I never once said that. Both my sentences clearly indicate that a relationship to maxon is required. so you clearly misinterpreted.

Any other beta tester want to chuckle at the irony of the use of the word stupid. Seems I still haven't learned grammar and context are always trumped by peoples perceived sensitivities. (sorry bad inside joke) I'll read your book Joel if you reread the dictionary and perhaps a book on English grammar if you think I called any individual stupid in this thread or a peon by any of it's definitions both literal and "urban." I guess your book doesn't cover reading peoples communications properly.



As for your question on why my opposition, particularly the initial post (the rest are really reactions like most everyone else's right?)

Quote: I would do our customers a disservice if i were to keep silent on what is the best way to make their concerns heard at Maxon.


My point was to encourage users to use the proper avenue, as enough already think posting on a forum is telling Maxon what's wrong, and was posted prior to any explanation on his prior efforts to communicate with Maxon.

Strangely enough, could you imagine if Srek had just +1'd my whole post instead of quoting the specific part he chose. You'd all be riding him for saying petitions are stupid... I"m sorry, Joel still did.
__________________
Quote: "Until you do what you believe in, how do you know whether you believe in it or not?" -Leo Tolstoy
Kai Pedersen
 
  04 April 2013
It's amazing in an age of web 3.0 where most companies are embracing social media to engage with their customers and make it easy to receive and take action on feedback. There are dinosaurs that steadfastly refuse to be customer focussed.


There were links to the luxology site which I followed and there's a good comparison how two companies making a similar product go about things. I've spent a bit of time there over the last few evenings reading what users think of Modo/Lux.

As far as I have been able to see there's no heavy handed moderation, no threads locked I could see.
There's assistance from Luxology staff with threads notifying that questions have been answered.
There's a comprehensive known issues list available.
There's very critical members there posting on the luxology hosted forums and mature lively debate. Users being critical of luxology and modo does not appear to be a problem for Luxology.
I have also seen messages from their staff thanking users for input and going as far as to indicate the direction of development and thanking them for the feedback. Yes, thanking them.
The users appear to hold a couple of the Lux staff in very high regard.

There is a stark difference between the two companies outreach into their user base. Chalk and cheese.
 
  04 April 2013
Originally Posted by AntimatterVFX: As far as I have been able to see there's no heavy handed moderation, no threads locked I could see.
There's assistance from Luxology staff with threads notifying that questions have been answered.
There's a comprehensive known issues list available.
There's very critical members there posting on the luxology hosted forums and mature lively debate. Users being critical of luxology and modo does not appear to be a problem for Luxology.
I have also seen messages from their staff thanking users for input and going as far as to indicate the direction of development and thanking them for the feedback. Yes, thanking them.
The users appear to hold a couple of the Lux staff in very high regard.

There is a stark difference between the two companies outreach into their user base. Chalk and cheese.


Ahmen . (is that comprehensive and concise enough?)
 
  04 April 2013
+1 -1 seems straightforward at first..but there is very little input/feedback from the customer in those sorts of responses...they are also very crowd lead imho. not so sure this will give anything other than a general impression based on the mob voting. its a bit like feature lists from companies which don't half match the implementation in the box...both for me feel a little disingenuous. don't get me wrong social media has its place, but is it the best interface between developers and customers...who knows, i feel it isn't...but no doubt time will tell.
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One never knows what each day is going to bring. The important thing is to be open and ready for it.

Henry Moore
 
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