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Old 04-04-2013, 11:55 AM   #16
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Björn Dirk Marl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob rhodes
Do you have a personal opinion on this Srek and are you able to use any influence in this?

I don't realy have an own opinion since my personal Cinema 4D needs are very different from what most customers want out of it. I'm a technician, not an artist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by belushy
I don't get it. Signing a Petition is useless??
A bit more respect for customers would be appreciated..


I would do our customers a disservice if i were to keep silent on what is the best way to make their concerns heard at Maxon.

Cheers
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:27 PM   #17
deepshade
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Currently it is impossible to know if any requests make it or if 'it was all in the plan anyway' and that disconnect really kills all that good intention and enthusiasm.

Ok - be positive - what about in each release adding a note to indicate features XYZ were in response to/helped/etc due to user feedback. Not perfect - but a start. (no I don't want to get into a discussion over pros and cons it was just a thought).
 
Old 04-04-2013, 12:34 PM   #18
Srek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepshade
Currently it is impossible to know if any requests make it or if 'it was all in the plan anyway' and that disconnect really kills all that good intention and enthusiasm.

Ok - be positive - what about in each release adding a note to indicate features XYZ were in response to/helped/etc due to user feedback. Not perfect - but a start. (no I don't want to get into a discussion over pros and cons it was just a thought).

The problem is that it does not work that way. Nearly every feature ever implemented in CINEMA 4D came into existence based on user- and/or betatester feedback. It is simply impossible to trace any such feature back to one or more input given by a person, the process of designing and implementing a feature is way to long and winded to make this possible.
Add to this a certain time lag that can be counted in years sometimes and it realy becomes unwieldy. You would need a complete new level of tracking and management to achieve this. Are you willing to pay extra for that? Would it be worth it?

Cheers
Björn
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:56 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srek
The problem is that it does not work that way. Nearly every feature ever implemented in CINEMA 4D came into existence based on user- and/or betatester feedback. It is simply impossible to trace any such feature back to one or more input given by a person, the process of designing and implementing a feature is way to long and winded to make this possible.
Add to this a certain time lag that can be counted in years sometimes and it realy becomes unwieldy. You would need a complete new level of tracking and management to achieve this. Are you willing to pay extra for that? Would it be worth it?

Cheers
Björn


OK - I did say I didn't want to etc etc....

sorry edited.

Last edited by deepshade : 04-04-2013 at 01:06 PM.
 
Old 04-04-2013, 12:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srek
The problem is that it does not work that way. Nearly every feature ever implemented in CINEMA 4D came into existence based on user- and/or betatester feedback. It is simply impossible to trace any such feature back to one or more input given by a person, the process of designing and implementing a feature is way to long and winded to make this possible.
Add to this a certain time lag that can be counted in years sometimes and it realy becomes unwieldy. You would need a complete new level of tracking and management to achieve this. Are you willing to pay extra for that? Would it be worth it?

Cheers
Björn


I understand it would be a hard job tracking every new feature to the first user who brought it up on the suggestion page.
But now i'm left in the dark, if maxon gives me a straight answer 'No this ain't gonna happen, forget it', perfect then i can move on.
Maybe i try to test the market for a plugin that solves this, which from what i've understood is not an easy (=expensive) task with the new renderqueue
But I'm not gonna put time and money in the development of a plugin if Maxon leaves the question open. i'm not running a big studio who can do this kind things.
AND i'm not really sure it's possible with R14 to fix this with a plugin!

to set the record straight and avoid miscommunication
I'm not here (or start the petition) to put maxon in a bad day light or damage maxon it's reputation
and i'm not planning to switch software etc...
i'm just a archi-viz guy who has a problem in his workflow since he bought R12 and he tries to find a solution. end of story

regards, Peter
 
Old 04-04-2013, 01:08 PM   #21
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Just saying "No, this will not happen" can turn out to be wrong in very short time. Our developers are constantly working on solving problems that are as old as CINEMA 4D itself. Sometimes there are fast solutions, sometimes there are no solutions and more often than not it just takes a long time until a viable solution for a tricky problem can be found.
In the past i was surprised many times by some ingenious trick with which previously simply impossible stuff suddenly became easy.
On the other hand we had several occasions where stuff we thought we had wrapped up and practically ready to release turned around and bit us so hard that it was impossible to release and maybe even got scraped completely in the end.

These are the main reasons why it is not easy at all to give a definite answer on requests.


Paul: As i said, basically everything ever implemented is based on information we got from users, i wouldn't know where to start to differentiate.
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srek
Paul: As i said, basically everything ever implemented is based on information we got from users, i wouldn't know where to start to differentiate.



Yes Björn - I re-read and thought my comment misplaced and inappropriate. Appreciate it isn't easy.
 
Old 04-04-2013, 01:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srek
Just saying "No, this will not happen" can turn out to be wrong in very short time. Our developers are constantly working on solving problems that are as old as CINEMA 4D itself. Sometimes there are fast solutions, sometimes there are no solutions and more often than not it just takes a long time until a viable solution for a tricky problem can be found.
In the past i was surprised many times by some ingenious trick with which previously simply impossible stuff suddenly became easy.
On the other hand we had several occasions where stuff we thought we had wrapped up and practically ready to release turned around and bit us so hard that it was impossible to release and maybe even got scraped completely in the end.


Yes but this is a feature that was 'taken out' of the software, not something new (let's bring the old renderbatch back is also an option)
So when maxon made the all new renderqueue (and i'm sure with the best intentions)
Maxon and the betatesters thought a full preview isn't that important while doing many (large) images,
can be they didn't see that coming, mistakes happen all the time, no problem
BUT please correct the mistake in a future update or give those users an alternative

I can't use the renderqueue for final images, instead i render straight to the picture viewer, set my alarmclock and
i get up in the middle of the night to start a new rendering, rather this than seeing a mistake the next morning that i could have solved with few clicks
lucky this doesn't happen all the time, but when the deadlines are tight, yes that's the way it goes
 
Old 04-04-2013, 04:39 PM   #24
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Have you ever not been able to address a concern from a client? Have you not ever had a list of things they'd like to do but because of time budget and complexity cut parts of a project? think of it this way, each release maxon has a couple of major notable features, There's still a lot the app doesn't do at all. These are slated and worked on for a long period, often more than a single release development cycle, and as we all know when we talk about first version of a feature, even those major projects simply don't have the time to address every little bit.

On top of that they allot time for developing bugfixes, and smaller workflow improvements etc. They then have thousands if not tens of thousands of suggestions. Within those they have varying degrees of clarity on what is wanted, what complexity the feature is, and which developers it requires. They need to make a priority list and one thing that helps is if a feature has been requested a lot. There is the time where people being vocal on forums and such will allow testers to discuss and aid in pointing out the importance/severity of a concern, but how many formal requests is still going to be a a major factor. Maxon also visits and talks with studios in various industries a lot, takes tonnes of notes from them, and still can only tough on a few of what all is being requested from them.

It's a feature that clearly hasn't been requested much, when it was originally requested or how often a single user brings it up is of no importance, I know it's hard to hear, but having a poll and then providing that in some link in a suggestion won't mean as much as each person posting an actual suggestion. Treat it more like a letter to congress. Write a preformatted text and provide a link to the suggestion page to have people past that info into the suggestion page and you'd likely have more success.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:46 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterbmd
I can't use the renderqueue for final images, instead i render straight to the picture viewer, set my alarmclock and i get up in the middle of the night to start a new rendering,


*scratches his head slightly*

But... If youre asleep and have to set an alarm clock to set the next image rendering, why not just queue it in the render queue and keep sleeping?

Not to diminish the need for it, I agree, you should be able to see the image as it renders, but if youre going to bed anyway then unless youre Crocodile Dundee and sleep with your eyes open...
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Old 04-04-2013, 06:23 PM   #26
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haha no the days of sleeping next to the computer are already a few years behind me
Most of the times i check what's rendering, how it looks and check later in the evening with screensharing how it's going,
hours staring at slow moving buckets ... sound familiar ?

I think you know want i mean with setting the alarm clock

Last edited by peterbmd : 04-04-2013 at 08:05 PM. Reason: learning to write proper english
 
Old 04-04-2013, 07:22 PM   #27
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i like the idea...discuss ....vote.


Maybe we should also discuss maxon suggestion process and how it could be improved for the benefit of customers...maybe discussion threading on open suggestions, or open like/dislikes to those registered used etc..dunno there is definitely room for improvement though...fill...form...send...ether...wait...tap.. .tap...frustration..doesn't necessarily have to be a response back although if you have and MSA i'd expect a response of some form even if it was a thanks no thanks...maybe a process of engagement can be dreamt up so the little man like myself feels valued...lol.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:02 AM   #28
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I have added an open ideas and suggestion forum , where anyone can add their ideas and suggestions.

UserVoice Cinema4D Ideas and suggestions.. where you are welcome to openly rattle your sabre(s) or anyone elses.
 
Old 04-05-2013, 03:10 PM   #29
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@Maxon
  • I want to search for suggestions / problems as tags. e.g. material, nodes, ...
  • If a similar suggestions / problems was posted before, i can view these and if one matches my suggestion / problem
  • - > I can vote for it.
  • - > or I can comment additional features.
  • - > optionally I can subscribe to get an email if someone votes or comments.
  • Problem: discussions should be taken in a subforum perhaps but i guess comments still have to be moderated.
  • If I can't find a suggestion / problem which is matching i can go through the whole type my fingers off process of describing my need with words ;-)

Maxon does not need to comment I know how it is, but if users feel that enough people having the same (vote) users make feel themselves good and the merge of ideas is done by the users if they think its the same problem.

Voting has to be done with your serial number to prevent pushing of course.

just my 2 bullet points.
kind regards
mogh
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:35 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tapaul
I have added an open ideas and suggestion forum , where anyone can add their ideas and suggestions.

UserVoice Cinema4D Ideas and suggestions.. where you are welcome to openly rattle your sabre(s) or anyone elses.


This is GREAT Paul--thanks.

As someone who uses c4d 7 days a week and as many hours a day that I can bare, I find myself regularly cutting corners or switching gears to methods that I know will work when I hit a wall (whether that wall is a missing feature, newly discovered limitation, or a bug) in order to get the job rendered and out the door...and then onto the next scene. (Just looking at my bizarre posts lately will give you an idea)

I understand how important it is to report bugs or greatly needed features--and I admit due to the nature of my schedule all I really want to do on most days is fix the problem at hand in whatever way I can and move on, rather than do the more productive (yet time consuming) thing and take a step back, cobble a scene file that I can send off for review and then officially report an issue or feature wish.

Getting these "feature wish" discussions going can only be a good thing. If Kai or Maxon think petitions are stupid, then perhaps the petition could simply be a contract in a sense, so that each petitioner will back up their intention with a formal request to Maxon. If anything, it could help keep us all focused, knowing we are requesting features as a group which may help us feel more confident that our voices will be heard rather than knowing it will be filed a way somewhere because only 3 people who took the time sent a request at all.

Or... not.
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Last edited by JoelDubin : 04-05-2013 at 03:43 PM.
 
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