Cinema 4D vs Modo

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Old 03 March 2013   #31
Originally Posted by xfon5168: Im basing it on my limited encounters with modo, and watching their videos each release...


Reckon you have to be a user of any app to assess a release, otherwise all you're doing is checking some feature list, and going by what other people are saying. I wouldn't judge the XSI release even though it's being loudly slated - because I don't use XSI, and don't know the issues. Maybe they've all been crying out for a CameraSequencer script

Originally Posted by xfon5168: My point is as Modo grows so tool will it's price, but no one complains about the precedent being set of increasing the price each version


A ton of people complained - 18 pages on this thread, the first dozen mainly about price. Nothing shocking there though, stuff goes up, people get annoyed. It's still cheaper than Cinema by half, and like Kai said, the differences on paper are getting harder to spot. Personally I use both, and both recent upgrades - R14 and 701 - have been more about solid refinement than big features.

Animation up until now has been weak in modo to the point where I wouldn't consider using it, but there are some increasing arguments going on in my head for giving it a try - the live preview being the main one IMO.
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Old 03 March 2013   #32
I'm surprised Bret. I can't honestly still their as an ex maxon employee and think that any recent update compares to how much they got in this one release. I mean yes in a way its them catching up to all the major packages, but best Maxon could do to compete is actually update most sections of their app in a single release and we know full well that doesn't happen.

I mean lets look at what they got:

1) a whole new particle system (c4d got this back in what version 8 and has hardly updated it.)
2)A whole new character animation system (Ours, based on what I can see seems to offer more, but that's also a system that came out over how many versions, since version 10 to 13, that's 6 versions.)
3)Multi-res sculpt. Yes they had some of a sculpting system before, but now they have an impressive sculpting system. This is Maxon's key feature for this release)
4)Linux version, like that one Maxon kind of almost had at one point.

Those three things alone kick all the product releases in the last year's ass. Now again the argument that all the other apps had particles or had CA, great, modo had a sculpting system unlike C4D, they had alembic unlike C4D, they had the majority of R14's modeling improvements already, rendering they had a fair chunk of our R13 and 14 rendering already. It's an argument that'd go both ways.

Those are major features. Maxon pulled off one of those in it's last release and a bunch of the minor stuff. You can't honestly say this was a more impressive release http://www.maxon.net/products/new-i...4/overview.html

I also cna't believe as an animation and simulation guy, that you'd be unimpressed by largely animation and FX driven features
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Old 03 March 2013   #33
R14 a refinement update? Was scultping a refinement of the extrude tool?

Joke aside, the new Modo version looks very nice, some of the workflow/tools made me a bit envious, actually.
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Old 03 March 2013   #34
Originally Posted by Firebeard: xfon5168 - You seem to be indeed a bit biased here (I guess that's because you work for Maxon?) Not sure how you can not be impressed with the Modo update. They updated pretty much every facet of Modo and on top got new features. Surely, the last C4D update didn't look all that impressive to me (Woodshader? Seriously? Why did Maxon even mention that?).


For the record. I don't work at MAXON. I did, but do not currently. Biased or not what the hell does that matter? Your opinion of R14 sounds biased. What, you hate wood now? (I kid, I kid)

Im not impressed with the update because 1. The modelling enhancements while nice, are being done one simplified cases and Im curious how they handle more complicated ones. 2. The Animation enhancements are poorly done(why does one need to enter a separate mode to do timewarp something that's been in CINEMA since R10?), or they have been in CINEMA since 9 or 10. So why would I be impressed by that? An F-Curve is something they should've had when they implemented animation 2-3 versions ago. And oooooh a layout switcher, big deal. About as big deal as a wood shader, but at least the wood shader is sexy at render time.

Luxology had a tradition of pretty nuts good releases, release videos and features. I just feel it's lacking this version. That's all. It doesn't mean it's a bad version, it doesn't mean that every CINEMA version is better by comparison. It just leaves me feeling like "meh". That's all I was saying.
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Old 03 March 2013   #35
Originally Posted by Venkman: I'd say the next version is coming out in September, with an announcement in August. That's what it has been for the last few releases.


ToolFarm has a C4D upgrade sale that ends on 3/31/2012... which is less than a week away. Usually upgrade sales are a good indicator when a new version is coming out?

I'd like to see Maxon take a page from Modo 701 and Adobe's CS7 and trickle out some sneak peeks of indivdual features leading up to the release.
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Old 03 March 2013   #36
Originally Posted by fluffouille: R14 a refinement update? Was scultping a refinement of the extrude tool?


Fair point, forgot about sculpting. Must try that in Cinema one day. Maybe 'Catchup Release' would have been a better word
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Old 03 March 2013   #37
Originally Posted by LucentDreams: I'm surprised Bret. I can't honestly still their as an ex maxon employee and think that any recent update compares to how much they got in this one release. I mean yes in a way its them catching up to all the major packages, but best Maxon could do to compete is actually update most sections of their app in a single release and we know full well that doesn't happen.

I mean lets look at what they got:

1) a whole new particle system (c4d got this back in what version 8 and has hardly updated it.)
2)A whole new character animation system (Ours, based on what I can see seems to offer more, but that's also a system that came out over how many versions, since version 10 to 13, that's 6 versions.)
3)Multi-res sculpt. Yes they had some of a sculpting system before, but now they have an impressive sculpting system. This is Maxon's key feature for this release)
4)Linux version, like that one Maxon kind of almost had at one point.

Those three things alone kick all the product releases in the last year's ass. Now again the argument that all the other apps had particles or had CA, great, modo had a sculpting system unlike C4D, they had alembic unlike C4D, they had the majority of R14's modeling improvements already, rendering they had a fair chunk of our R13 and 14 rendering already. It's an argument that'd go both ways.

Those are major features. Maxon pulled off one of those in it's last release and a bunch of the minor stuff. You can't honestly say this was a more impressive release http://www.maxon.net/products/new-i...4/overview.html


Again, for the record, I was never comparing tit for tat maxon releases to modo releases saying RXX was better than X01 or vice versa. Im simply comparing 701 to past Modo releases.

I havent liked it because there's no depth to what I see. Sure the pinning and dynamic parenting looks nice. But they've only showed it on rigid body characters, no skinned ones. They've showed no renders with it so how does it handle Motionblur? Where are the attributes for them? Do they exist? Why does it have to be me entering a new mode to do it? It all seems rather clunky to me and I have no answers to those questions.

About animation, Its like oh cool they have those things, but again, their implementation leaves me to question why they are doing it in a weird way. To do timewarp, you have to launch a tool that is intrusive? Or is it a mode? Why is it that and not the normal, better way of just a way to scrub with a modifier? Why does the motion path have to be generated? Is it being generated? Is it a separate mode as well? It seems like it is since it seems to generate a mesh. If it is/does, can I still tweak my object manually? Or am I stuck just doing the path? what happens if I do both?

How about the bridge fill? How does it handle when the subdivisions don't match? How does the contour thing work if you go across only part of the mesh? Or across the bicep, gap, then chest?

And like the rendering stuff was kind of weak(The pause and resume thing was pretty boss). Fog, and a Sky. MAXON got lots of crap for implementing a sky, but hey look Modo's got a new sky oooooh!


As 4th point, the 4th point I wouldn't consider it to be an upgrading feature. For a studio a purchasing one maybe, but like Linux wouldn't sell me either way if MAXON finally fully implemented one or Modo's current one.

Maybe im expecting too much from feature release videos(ill concede that I am). But when I watched brad's videos on those 701 features, those were what immediately popped into my head. But if I compare http://www.luxology.com/modo/601/tour/ to http://www.luxology.com/modo/701/tour/, The number of categories is bigger in 601 and none of them are UI changes in 601. But I digress. If you guys think it's a more kickass release than others in the past, then we can all just agree to disagree and carry on.

I don't get why Im getting so much guff for just expressing my opinion on something. Oh gee, he used to work for MAXON, his opinion is biased, and shouldnt be listened too. Well, everyone's biased. I'm well aware Modo is a better modeller and has probably the best damn renderer out there. I can openly admit that. But it's still lacking in clunky in areas that are not those two. Its just from all the crashing I've done in Modo, and the clunky workflows for animation that I have experienced in it.

Originally Posted by LucentDreams: I also cna't believe as an animation and simulation guy, that you'd be unimpressed by largely animation and FX driven features


The animation ones look meh for the reasons I posted, and I do cloth and hair, rigid body stuff is for suckers
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Last edited by xfon5168 : 03 March 2013 at 12:48 AM. Reason: To not sound like such a doucher
 
Old 03 March 2013   #38
xfon5168 - No reason to get all out of shape. I am completely calm but you seem to be a bit on the defense. Modo isn't perfect but is sure has won a lot of ground in recent years there is no denial about that. You may not think 701 was all that impressive but then again a lot of people will say the same about R14 (I for one).

My issue here is that Maxon has been loosing ground and updates seem to have less and less features in recent years. Some may think "Sculpting" in R14 was all that but honestly, I don't understand the business decision behind that. The market has several established sculpting apps (Zbrush, Mudbox, 3DCoat and even Modo) so why exactly did Maxon spend so much time and effort on that? Beyond me honestly. You may say "Well so I can stay within one app" but you know, that doesn't matter much as most people won't be convinced to leave zBrush behind.

Anyhow, everybody is entitled to their opinion and I shared mine. Its all good.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #39
Both modo and C4D seem to going after the same user base (single user, small studios, many Mac customers), so comparisons are inevitable. It is only recently that we are reaching the point of feature parity.

I think what is impressive about modo is the seeing the growth from release to release. They seem to be making the right moves in developing their product. Soon, modo will be on equal footing with C4D and we will have more options as users. This is a good thing.

Btw, at one time, BP was something of the crown jewel of C4D. Heavily featured on Maxon's website and noted for its use in major motion pictures. Why did Maxon seemingly let it's development stall? I also thought S&T was the best NPR shader available, but further upgrades haven't been forthcoming. It will be interesting to see what Maxon is working on for R15. I wasn't too thrilled with R14, but as was noted earlier, if you don't keep up with each release, at some point, the upgrade cost is prohibitively expensive.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #40
Originally Posted by Firebeard: xfon5168 - No reason to get all out of shape. I am completely calm but you seem to be a bit on the defense. Modo isn't perfect but is sure has won a lot of ground in recent years there is no denial about that. You may not think 701 was all that impressive but then again a lot of people will say the same about R14 (I for one).

My issue here is that Maxon has been loosing ground and updates seem to have less and less features in recent years. Some may think "Sculpting" in R14 was all that but honestly, I don't understand the business decision behind that. The market has several established sculpting apps (Zbrush, Mudbox, 3DCoat and even Modo) so why exactly did Maxon spend so much time and effort on that? Beyond me honestly. You may say "Well so I can stay within one app" but you know, that doesn't matter much as most people won't be convinced to leave zBrush behind.

Anyhow, everybody is entitled to their opinion and I shared mine. Its all good.


No worries man. I just didn't like my opinion being dismissed because at some point in time I worked at MAXON is all, so I had to state my reasons. No hard feelings or nothing. Modo has absolutely made some big ol strides over the years. What will be interesting to see is if they fall into some of the same traps as other apps do as they get bigger which is adding features, getting customers and keeping customers. Im sure down the road at some point they'll go to subscription based plan as well.

I thought R14 was kind of weak as well, but I thought MAXON did a very good job at implementing sculpting. R13 was my favorite release, but for those reasons I definitely am biased.
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Old 03 March 2013   #41
There is the same vibe on Autodesk side currently. Maxon is still more productive but we all know what C4D needs and we not quite getting it. Analyzing previous releases almost every new feature was prepared by some minor ones. Looking at R14 i dare to predict that in R15 there will be improvements to xpresso, modeling, little ones to sculpting and maybe 25% speed gain in physical render. This would be nice, but I don't think it would be enough for those tempted by Modo. I hope someone from Maxon is reading this thread and will encourage team to show something jaw dropping in next release.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #42
Originally Posted by Firebeard: Some may think "Sculpting" in R14 was all that but honestly, I don't understand the business decision behind that. The market has several established sculpting apps (Zbrush, Mudbox, 3DCoat and even Modo) so why exactly did Maxon spend so much time and effort on that? Beyond me honestly. You may say "Well so I can stay within one app" but you know, that doesn't matter much as most people won't be convinced to leave zBrush behind.


Exactly my reaction to it. As for it being 'all that', can it handle the poly count of ZBrush? or even Mudbox? Nope. Does it have retopo tools like ZBrush/3DCoat? Nope. Does it have a solid baking system like Mudbox/ZBrush. Nope. So where's the innovation there? We got a 'well it's like an old version of Mudbox' sculpting system and yet basic stuff like UV tools and Bodypaint got ignored yet again.

I'd like to see some 'ooh' and 'ahh' features in R15, like the Mograph and Hair modules were back in their day.

Cheers,
Brian
 
Old 03 March 2013   #43
Originally Posted by Horganovski: Exactly my reaction to it. As for it being 'all that', can it handle the poly count of ZBrush? or even Mudbox? Nope. Does it have retopo tools like ZBrush/3DCoat? Nope. Does it have a solid baking system like Mudbox/ZBrush. Nope. So where's the innovation there


Are you kidding, Brian? How many sculpting apps out there were so impressive at their v1.0? Zbrush was a 2.5D system, Mudbox didn't have all the features we have and Modo just used displacement maps for sculpting. Also how many generic 3D apps out there offer an inbuilt sculpting system that is on par with CINEMA's? Not Maya, not XSI, not Max, not HDN. The only one is Modo, and it's getting there after how many versions with an inbuilt sculpting system?
 
Old 03 March 2013   #44
Originally Posted by xfon5168: has probably the best damn renderer out there.


Not really, Bret. Give it a try, it's nothing special really. It's rather fast, but that's it. A renderer like VRay, for example, blows it outta the water imho, and we're not doing that bad either.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #45
IMHO, the past C4d releases appear to be laying the groundwork for a lot of big change in future. Its logical and very plausible that:

1. The new character tools recently added will lead to revamped Bodypaint with kickass UV/retopo tools.

2. Sculpting will lead to performance enhancements to handle gazillion polys/objects in realtime (which in turn will give us a faster/better particle/mograph system), as well as a beefed up modeling toolset.

3. The Physical Renderer will result in the addition of realtime/GPU rendering (I still think that's the only reason for a 'Progressive' render option).

4. All the new dynamics are just screaming out for a unified dynamics system.

5. Let's not forget the C4d/AE partnership; that should definitely result in an awesome compositing and 2d/3d workflow.

At the end of the day, every 3d app is always playing catch up with another. That's the beauty of competition driving innovation and development. So it's good to see c4d's direct competitor really upping their game. It just means Maxon will be pulling up their socks quickly.

Anyway, as long as we still have brilliant plugin developers on our side, I'm happy to say that C4d has a big advantage.
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