Cinema 4D vs Modo

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Old 03 March 2013   #16
If you have a look at the latest release of Modo and all it's updates and features and pricing you start to wonder why Maxon charges such insane amounts for their flag ship. Clearly, Modo has outrun C4D in many areas and I think most people predicted that not too long ago.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #17
Don't get me wrong Cinema 4D is capable of producing great things, but it desperately need some boost. Xpresso is first in a row in my opinion, if you look at xsi ICE, with speedy snappy multi-threaded nodal system deeply integrated into software core making custom tools become possible. Also OpenSubdiv is open, gpu rendering is common and life is short, so give it some boost maxon!
 
Old 03 March 2013   #18
Originally Posted by Firebeard: If you have a look at the latest release of Modo and all it's updates and features and pricing you start to wonder why Maxon charges such insane amounts for their flag ship. Clearly, Modo has outrun C4D in many areas and I think most people predicted that not too long ago.


the market can charge huge amounts for thier flag ships because Autodesk keeps the prices high.
just check their website for product prices and/or bundles.
my opinion.
cheers
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Old 03 March 2013   #19
Originally Posted by imashination: Keep in mind, if youre on a quad cpu machine, that 25% is 100% of 1 cpu core. Most actions in most apps are still single core bound. One of the worst choices I see some people make when picking hardware is to go for 8, 12, 16... core machines, but then pick a slow speed like 2GHz to achieve this. If you want the fastest most responsive machine, go for GHz, then overclock them some more. Theres little reason, at least for windows users, to not be running a good 3.5, 4GHz+ machine.


Same thing I keep ranting about, made a similar post here just a couple of days ago.

I can not only navigate a 25 million polygon object just fine, but sculpt a 25 million polygon object, of course I also have the 64 gb of ram to allow that large of a subdiv.

In terms of performance theres also the balance of number of objects to resolution of each object. C4D's always been terrible in terms of number of objects. I've been cleaning up the old blog to start posting again and the post I've been working on is some comparisons about cpu performance in C4D. With overclocking tool being so easy and flexible nowadays it's finally easy to compare the exact same system at 3.2ghz and at 4.4ghz. So I'll be comparing those as well as huge numbers of clones as is, as render instances, and individual instances and render instances, as polygon objects, and combined into a single polygon object.


My key rule though is combine, combine objects whenever possible. Ideally with UV tiles but if necessary with polygon selections as well. Yes this can make it a little more difficult to deal with the individual components of an object, but honestly fill selection makes it super easy to select individual model shells within a single object. The file size and viewport performances difference between thousands of individual objects and one single object is pretty substantial.




That all said, I agree the comparisons a little harsh as it's a brand new update to modo and that if even emphasizes the difference between 701 and 601 being pretty substantial, so a comparison of 601 and C4d would make a little more sense. It is however a huge release for modo, as this is the version where maxon can no long ignore them because they are only a partial app. There isn't a major feature in my mind that modo doesn't also have. Things like the character builder, or certain mograph objects, pyrocluster maybe, but they model, animate, rig, render, sculpt, UV layout and texture, dynamics, Particles, expressions, hair, they got it finally. If they have some better stability, then this is a serious contender and with a linux version being ported by some of the best linux graphics software developers, Maxon's a definite step behind in terms of higher end pipelines ever adopting it. I'll definitely be giving modo another try.
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Last edited by LucentDreams : 03 March 2013 at 05:19 PM.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #20
Yeah might be time to jump ship if c4d R15 doesn't address these speed issues in a big way.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #21
Originally Posted by Lagavulin16: I'm pretty new to C4D, coming from 3ds Max. The biggest thing I noticed with C4D is just the horrible viewport speed. I can't even get realtime playback to check my animation when I add some grid cloners in there.

What are some tips/optimizations I need to do in order to improve playback? I basically have to hide/solo layers, switch to Low level of detail, etc... but it's just SO SLOW. I'm running Xeon e5 2.5GHz with 64GB ram and quadro 6000 card.


One thing you can try that is not immediately pointed out is in any viewport, select the Options menu and choose 'Enhanced OpenGL'. You will have to do this in all viewports. I don't know why this isn't on by default, but it IMMEDIATELY sped up my poly heavy scenes with my 512mb video card. (ATI Radeon HD 4870). I use it in every project. In fact, if someone can tell me how to make that a default, I would appreciate it.

-Ryan
 
Old 03 March 2013   #22
The viewport speed isn't the only issue here. It's the constant ignoring of current modules (Bodypaint, TP, Modeling tools etc). I mean, when was the last time Bodypaint had a large update? Not trying to sound angry but there are plenty of MSA paying people out there that expect a little more than what we have been seeing lately.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #23
Originally Posted by LucentDreams:
That all said, I agree the comparisons a little harsh as it's a brand new update to modo and that if even emphasizes the difference between 701 and 601 being pretty substantial, so a comparison of 601 and C4d would make a little more sense. It is however a huge release for modo, as this is the version where maxon can no long ignore them because they are only a partial app. There isn't a major feature in my mind that modo doesn't also have. Things like the character builder, or certain mograph objects, pyrocluster maybe, but they model, animate, rig, render, sculpt, UV layout and texture, dynamics, Particles, expressions, hair, they got it finally. If they have some better stability, then this is a serious contender and with a linux version being ported by some of the best linux graphics software developers, Maxon's a definite step behind in terms of higher end pipelines ever adopting it. I'll definitely be giving modo another try.


Don't forget that Modo teamed up with The Foundry too, so who knows what's on the horizon for them, but I'm sure it's good stuff.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #24
Originally Posted by gdogfunk: In fact, if someone can tell me how to make that a default, I would appreciate it.


new.c4d to the rescue!
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Old 03 March 2013   #25
Kai also recently pointed out that big portions of C4D's code is still one runs on one core: viewport, animation, deformers, S&T, and other stuff.

I would be really really surprised if Maxon isn't paying attention. Now the only question is: when is the next version of C4D coming out??
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Old 03 March 2013   #26
Originally Posted by Firebeard: If you have a look at the latest release of Modo and all it's updates and features and pricing you start to wonder why Maxon charges such insane amounts for their flag ship. Clearly, Modo has outrun C4D in many areas and I think most people predicted that not too long ago.


This is by far the worst looking release of Modo yet. There's literally nothing all that substantial to it in my opinion. The other thing no one wants to bring up is that 601 and 701 have seen increases in price. So when MAXON does it, they're bad, but if Luxology does it no one says a word.

Luxology should have stuck with modeling and rendering which is what they were very good at. The rest of the business they do, they don't do well.
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Old 03 March 2013   #27
Originally Posted by Navstar: Kai also recently pointed out that big portions of C4D's code is still one runs on one core: viewport, animation, deformers, S&T, and other stuff.

I would be really really surprised if Maxon isn't paying attention. Now the only question is: when is the next version of C4D coming out??


I'd say the next version is coming out in September, with an announcement in August. That's what it has been for the last few releases.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #28
Originally Posted by xfon5168: This is by far the worst looking release of Modo yet. There's literally nothing all that substantial to it in my opinion. The other thing no one wants to bring up is that 601 and 701 have seen increases in price. So when MAXON does it, they're bad, but if Luxology does it no one says a word.

Luxology should have stuck with modeling and rendering which is what they were very good at. The rest of the business they do, they don't do well.


I think you are a little biased. I've used both modo and C4D Studio for years now. I think this is a great update. The performance and workflow improvements alone look like something that would have had me upgrading. The particles look pretty good for a first release and the animation tools look decent. I choose to do most of my work in modo now as it just works faster for me with much of what I do. Even more so now with the 701 update.

There's a HUGE difference between the pricing, even though Lux has just raised theirs. The closest competitor to 701 that Maxon has feature wise is Studio. Modo is still less than half the price of a new license. Upgrades for modo are 500 vs 650 maintenance for C4D. If you skip your maintenance, and upgrade C4D, it is even more expensive. You also pay much of the cost of versions you missed the upgrade for. If you skip more than two upgrades of C4D you need to repurchase the program or wait for Maxon to offer an upgrade special for old versions if you wish to get current. Lux lets you upgrade any past version of modo to current for the same 500 upgrade.

Edit: Also I should add that the licensing of modo is amazing. The program is licensed to me and not tied to an install. I can put it wherever as long as I'm just using the one copy at a time. I have installed it to a USB stick and take it into other studios to work with. Maxon gives me one install and a second for a laptop, but only if I'm currently on maintenance.

Last edited by Cf! : 03 March 2013 at 09:53 PM.
 
Old 03 March 2013   #29
Originally Posted by Cf!: I think you are a little biased. I've used both modo and C4D Studio for years now. I think this is a great update. The performance and workflow improvements alone look like something that would have had me upgrading. The particles look pretty good for a first release and the animation tools look decent. I choose to do most of my work in modo now as it just works faster for me with much of what I do. Even more so now with the 701 update.

There's a HUGE difference between the pricing, even though Lux has just raised theirs. The closest competitor to 701 that Maxon has feature wise is Studio. Modo is still less than half the price of a new license. Upgrades for modo are 500 vs 650 maintenance for C4D. If you skip your maintenance, and upgrade C4D, it is even more expensive. You also pay much of the cost of versions you missed the upgrade for. If you skip more than two upgrades of C4D you need to repurchase the program or wait for Maxon to offer an upgrade special for old versions if you wish to get current. Lux lets you upgrade any past version of modo to current for the same 500 upgrade.

Edit: Also I should add that the licensing of modo is amazing. The program is licensed to me and not tied to an install. I can put it wherever as long as I'm just using the one copy at a time. I have installed it to a USB stick and take it into other studios to work with. Maxon gives me one install and a second for a laptop, but only if I'm currently on maintenance.


Im basing it on my limited encounters with modo, and watching their videos each release. The videos from past versions of whats new, way more impressive than this year. So far everything I've been seeing has been like "Well that seems cool, but i want to see more". Like they are not showing how it will work in a production, only in simple examples so far.

As for licensing, all you need is a license server for CINEMA and you have the same licensing scheme. I can install CINEMA anywhere.

My point is as Modo grows so tool will it's price, but no one complains about the precedent being set of increasing the price each version, and for this version, I would say the upgrade is not worth it. That's just my opinion. I would never trust perfomance based improvements because they are always subjective to scene file, and computer specs. What could be faster in one file may not be in another. So that's not a good selling point to me and what's left is just meh. It's not BAD, it's just meh.

To be fair, that's also been my sentiment thus far for Softimage and Maya 2014 updates(more for softimage than maya's).

I stand by my point of it being a meh upgra
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Old 03 March 2013   #30
xfon5168 - You seem to be indeed a bit biased here (I guess that's because you work for Maxon?) Not sure how you can not be impressed with the Modo update. They updated pretty much every facet of Modo and on top got new features. Surely, the last C4D update didn't look all that impressive to me (Woodshader? Seriously? Why did Maxon even mention that?).
 
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