Cinema 4D vs Modo

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  03 March 2013
Cinema 4D vs Modo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlX3IOK67os


I hope Maxon watched this and learned a lesson.
In Cinema 4d it is impossible to navigate in scene with 1 000 000 polygons separated in few thousand objects, I'm not even talking about any deformations ( displacer, skin, xpresso, hypernurbs, pretty much anything). If Maxon want to compete with Luxology R15 has to be few times faster in almost every aspect and few hundred times faster in some, otherwise price/performance ratio will be very very bad on maxon side.
 
  03 March 2013
Viewport speed, or lack of it, is just another nostalgia-feature of Maxon. We are "happy" to pay a yearly increasing price of tools that never get updated, be it SnT or Pyro or TP or viewport speed or Cloth or whatever. For example, over the years I must've paid way over 1000 for Pyro, and quite frankly I can't afford to see it updated.

A new viewport would presumably double the price of C4D...
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  03 March 2013
Been banging that drum for a while (not in comparison to Modo though). I'd take a performance overhaul over quite a few of the latest R14 features (sculpting and the phys render for starters - I expect to take some flak for that ).

My guess is that performance enhancements are not glamorous enough to attract new buyers, so Maxon has to balance what's best for the business and pleasing existing users.

I'd be interested to know what the technical challenges are involved in giving a reasonable viewport speed with large object counts, I'm sure it's a resource heavy update.

Object handling has become a major workflow hurdle, you end up spending a lot of time optimising a scene to run realtime in the viewport. Mainly an issue for me when working on previs, but it applies eslewhere too.

cheers
brasc
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  03 March 2013
A bit unfair this as previous modo versions have been terrible with complex scenes, and there's been plenty of progress from Maxon - render instances make scenes that used to be grinding become fairly fluid.

But the live, rendered preview that lets you navigate through it easily is awfully compelling.
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  03 March 2013
Does anybody know how big is Luxology team compared to Maxon? It seams like Luxology is substantially bigger.
 
  03 March 2013
maxon got 16 dev members (according to "who is maxon" video quick tip)

luxology got 8 (http://www.luxology.com/company/key_staff.aspx)



btw. im seriously impressed by the modo update ...maxon have to do so with next update
 
  03 March 2013
That is a very impressive video, but I do have to pull you up on the numbers of your claim. If I make 3500 objects in c4d with a total of a million polys and apply a 2k texture to them, im able to navigate at a healthy 36fps on a 2560x1600 screen. This is on a 5 year old i7 920 cpu and geforce 580

Bump this to 4.5 million polys and I get 33 fps
17 million, 31 fps
64 million polys 10 fps

These are perfectly healthy and usable numbers. Whilst the video shown is impressive, does it serve any real world purpose? Nobody has projects with 2.7 billion polys in them, if you have such a scene then you're just incredibly bad at your job.

Don't take this as me saying I think the performance in c4d is good enough, I dont think it is, but regardless of how fast it gets, I dont think anyone will ever be satisfied.
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  03 March 2013
It appears like opposite.

I was afraid of this situation after maxon rewriten some core functionality like getting rid of modularity and adding double precision stuff. It was obvious that if in this update we won't see any major speed improvements we will have to wait to another major core redesign for this. Personaly I think we have to wait at least 2-3 releases to expirience any significant ( like deforming 2 000 000 poly mesh while previewing it in GPU accelerated view with Gi and SSS) improvements in performance/functionality field.
 
  03 March 2013
Ok, ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit but most of the time when your viewport is struggling to keep up CPU is only 25-30% loaded.
 
  03 March 2013
I don't get this complaint at all. What hardware are you using?
In R14, I'm currently recording (w/camtasia) while I work and navigate smoothly in a scene with 37 million polygons which is full textured.
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  03 March 2013
Originally Posted by AdsovonMelk: Ok, ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit but most of the time when your viewport is struggling to keep up CPU is only 25-30% loaded.


Keep in mind, if youre on a quad cpu machine, that 25% is 100% of 1 cpu core. Most actions in most apps are still single core bound. One of the worst choices I see some people make when picking hardware is to go for 8, 12, 16... core machines, but then pick a slow speed like 2GHz to achieve this. If you want the fastest most responsive machine, go for GHz, then overclock them some more. Theres little reason, at least for windows users, to not be running a good 3.5, 4GHz+ machine.
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  03 March 2013
c4ds viewport speed is sufficient. if you have problems with your viewport speed
you do most likely need more ram. given the facts that previous modo versions are
well known for their really bad viewport performance, the short film ruin relied heavly
on instancing and that cloning that ship took almost 10 seconds, the whole video
seems pretty pointless to me. it is just some cached heavily instanced polygon data.

don't get me wrong, i am neither a luxology hater, nor a maxon fanboy, but the luxology
*hooray* videos are just stupid. would have been somewhat more believeable if they
had shown something uncached and not used such nonsense numer as 3e9 polygons.
 
  03 March 2013
Originally Posted by imashination: Keep in mind, if youre on a quad cpu machine, that 25% is 100% of 1 cpu core. Most actions in most apps are still single core bound. One of the worst choices I see some people make when picking hardware is to go for 8, 12, 16... core machines, but then pick a slow speed like 2GHz to achieve this. If you want the fastest most responsive machine, go for GHz, then overclock them some more. Theres little reason, at least for windows users, to not be running a good 3.5, 4GHz+ machine.


That's what I did when I switched to Windows for C4d. I got the latest Core i7 at the time and overclocked it to 4.2 Ghz (4.5 when it's in turbo). It's fast as hell.

Rendering will NEVER be fast enough, though! I basically want Unreal Engine or something real time to work with to be happy.


Back on topic - I am also watching Modo very closely. Next time Maxon needs to work on particles. I want to be blown away with R15's particles. The dynamics are there. I want to see it happen!
 
  03 March 2013
It's old Intel i5 with 8 gigs of ram and GTX 275.
I did some tests and I'm able to navigate in scene with 70-80 thousand objects, total 6 mil polys, quite smoothly, but there are some places where cinema is extremly slow.
This is some xpresso fun, play it and watch cpu usage.

Link
 
  03 March 2013
I'm pretty new to C4D, coming from 3ds Max. The biggest thing I noticed with C4D is just the horrible viewport speed. I can't even get realtime playback to check my animation when I add some grid cloners in there.

What are some tips/optimizations I need to do in order to improve playback? I basically have to hide/solo layers, switch to Low level of detail, etc... but it's just SO SLOW. I'm running Xeon e5 2.5GHz with 64GB ram and quadro 6000 card.
 
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