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Old 01-24-2013, 02:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tyler Durden
check the 2nd screenshot, Krakatoa can render roughly 28 millions in 2 minutes.. inside Cinema 4D, alhough be it generated from Krakatoa this time.. DOF wouldnt be a problem either

Throwing times around like that is meaningless, 2 mins to do what? What shading, shadows, light sources and on what system? CINEMA Hair can render 32 million particles on my system in 1:22s. Both times mean nothing without them matching the scene and system. Would be interested to know exactly what renders in 2mins, hair is pretty fast and anything that can beat it is interesting to me.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:34 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tyler Durden
check the 2nd screenshot, Krakatoa can render roughly 28 millions in 2 minutes.. inside Cinema 4D, alhough be it generated from Krakatoa this time.. DOF wouldnt be a problem either



looks cool but you cant render stuff like that nativ in cinema4d.
and the question is why is this not possible? is it so hard to modify the hairrenderengine to establish some "corefunctions" as Motionblur and DOF for points/particles? anyway...

i really hope that you get a bit support from maxon with your Krakatoa-Python_Bridge-Adventure.
krakatoa/Max is just mindblowing and it would be a fantastic enhancement for cinema4d to have a Krakatoa_C4D_Brigde.

Last edited by useruser : 01-24-2013 at 02:42 PM.
 
Old 01-24-2013, 02:45 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obeardy
anything that can beat it is interesting to me.


Krakatoa is the mother of that "Hair" engine, you can even use the same shading system..

My point was, the rendering is not the problem, but Cinema 4Ds limit of 10 million particles..

Anyways, system used was a q6600 at 3.6 GHz, memory usage at 1,5 Gb..


Quote:
Originally Posted by useruser

i really hope that you get a bit support from maxon with your Krakatoa-Python_Bridge-Adventure.
krakatoa/Max is just mindblowing and it would be a fantastic enhancement for cinema4d to have a Krakatoa_C4D_Brigde.
Nope, not gonna happen, Maxon doesn't care and won't actively support any development into this general direction.

Last edited by Mr.Tyler Durden : 01-24-2013 at 02:52 PM.
 
Old 01-24-2013, 02:50 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tyler Durden
So Chi actually says: use other softwares for this kind or work. "Crazy particle work"...


That IS exactly what I am saying...and it is a perfectly acceptable answer in this industry.
And my first reply here was the question "Were VFX "pros" ever their target market."
That market is already saturated by specialized apps (Did I mention that already? I think I did?), so it is better to focus on something more "achievable" for their current market...and I am sure they know they market far better than you or I.

MAXON doesn't "lose" anything by not building a stronger particle system...and although it may be nice to have "more" again, the ROI on develpment time etc. would likely not provide enough incentive to do this any time soon.

You are trying to shove the software into a market that you know it is not strong at...and for that you beat your head against the desk and spend your time ranting in these forums.
It's like trying to do character animation with modo...you can do it...but there are better options.

So yes. If particle work is your thing, and you absolutely need to have 100+ million particles...then use a tool that works for you rather than waste time and energy complaining about the one that doesn't. Seriously.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:57 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chi
That market is already saturated by specialized apps
you mean like sculpting tools.. *wink*

No seriously, you miss the point when you ignore that there are more and more users who are in need of working with particles and vfx nowadays, if Maxon says, fine, not our problem, use other software packages (sorry you beared with us all the years) , then I will take your word for that in every case someone asks here or elsewhere..

Quote:
Originally Posted by chi
ranting in these forums.
and I spent most of my free time to overcome these limitations and help people who are desperate because they believed Cinema 4D will continue to bring innovative features...

Last edited by Mr.Tyler Durden : 01-24-2013 at 03:01 PM.
 
Old 01-24-2013, 03:09 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tyler Durden
My point was, the rendering is not the problem, but Cinema 4Ds limit of 10 million particles.

That is the limit of Thinking Particles, not CINEMA, a particle system in CINEMA that is not Thinking Particles would have no such limit. pCache has no such limit, my test was with that rendering from a file cache with 32 million particles.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:19 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obeardy
That is the limit of Thinking Particles, not CINEMA, a particle system in CINEMA that is not Thinking Particles would have no such limit. pCache has no such limit, my test was with that rendering from a file cache with 32 million particles.


and you can display these, navigate freely in the editor, continue to work with these and modify in xpresso?

You cannot even generate more than 10 million particles with TP in one scene. It will cut of the display of these, AND most importantly, what Joel also got, bring up the error: cannot allocate particles.. when trying to render.. your plugin might be useful in some cases, but doesnt fix the whole situation, it even suffers from the basic problems itself.

Remember, Cinema 4D is not focused on a userbase which would actually need so many particles, so you waste your time writing these plugins.. so to understand.

But no, you gain a lot of reputation for your plugin and excellent feedback.. so why is that??

*irony* off
 
Old 01-24-2013, 03:28 PM   #38
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Hey Patrick--hows it going

I can see how some might feel some of us are ranting about wanting more in the particle department, and I suppose some of us are. But that's what the internet is for anyway, right?

I can't speak for others, but based on my experiences, the work is getting more demanding out there and each year the bar continues to be raised. Work that was once reserved for high end film vfx has trickled down into almost everything--just poke around Vimeo and you can see smaller mograph shops and even single freelance guys churning out great stuff.

I think these rants are just a reaction from those of us who want to remain competitive. As Priest said above, I too do not wish to change careers and become a full-blown vfx guy, but I do recognize the need to (and would like to) strengthen those abilities. C4D has always been the tool of choice for the freelance generalist. What it means to be a generalist now and 5 or 6 years ago has changed. C4D has done an excellent job over the years keeping up with the changing needs of its user base, and I guess I (we) just hope it continues to do so.
 
Old 01-24-2013, 03:32 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tyler Durden
you mean like sculpting tools.. *wink*

No seriously, you miss the point when you ignore that there are more and more users who are in need of working with particles and vfx nowadays, if Maxon says, fine, not our problem, use other software packages (sorry you beared with us all the years) , then I will take your word for that in every case someone asks here or elsewhere..

and I spent most of my free time to overcome these limitations and help people who are desperate because they believed Cinema 4D will continue to bring innovative features...


First, we are talking about particle work, NOT particle work AND VFX.
There are many users doing "VFX" with CINEMA 4D that does not include particle work.
And there are others that do a fine job within the limitations of the system.

So back on particles, my reply was, more or less, "If you need particle work specifically then yes there are better suited apps." I don't see how that is such a horrible statement?

Unless you are implying that sculpting is on par with z-brush, then bringing up sculpting is pointless.
I freely admit that while CINEMA does sculpting, if you ONLY sculpt, use a dedicated app.
Same advice I give for particles...CINEMA does particles, but if you really, really, need 100+ million particles use a specialized system.
I mean Cinema also does UV mapping...but if you do a lot of UV mapping...then use a dedicated app.

I'm sorry that MAXON's development doesn't suite your needs, but that is solely based on your needs.

Also, on the helping front...where do you help?
It seems every time I read a post from you it is a complaint about something or other.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tyler Durden
But no, you gain a lot of reputation for your plugin and excellent feedback.. so why is that??

*irony* off

I have not stated any of those things or implied them (not intentionally at least) or anything else. I was actually interested in the rendering speed of Krakatoa, no more, no less. Call it a hobby of mine, this has nothing to do with my own plugins.

Thanks for the info you did give, good luck with your venture.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:46 PM   #41
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I brought up sculpting to show you, that your general reasoning on dedicated apps, so maxon doesnt need to implement this or that doesn't make sense.. it was just easier to integrate the sculpting than rewriting or updating TP obviously..

VFX and particles mostly go hand in hand nowadays, you have explosions with lots of depris, water with lots of spray/foam, Smoke, Fire etc.. sparkling stuff.. and most of these are simulated as well

My impression is, that there are few more people besides me that share the same needs.. hence the success of plugins like TFD, pCache, X Particles.. even HOT is aimed for VFX folks.

I was trying to push the limits of plugins like RealFlow RenderKit, RealFlow, Krakatoa by actively participating in the development and testing, for my personal needs as well as the needs of all remaining 9-14 people..

If maxon did something nice in this reaction, I'd be the first to salute believe me.. but till now the lack of interest, support and motivation on this matter was just frustrating. And I know a few C4D Pros feel the same!
 
Old 01-24-2013, 03:48 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelOtron
Hey Patrick--hows it going

I can see how some might feel some of us are ranting about wanting more in the particle department, and I suppose some of us are. But that's what the internet is for anyway, right?

I can't speak for others, but based on my experiences, the work is getting more demanding out there and each year the bar continues to be raised. Work that was once reserved for high end film vfx has trickled down into almost everything--just poke around Vimeo and you can see smaller mograph shops and even single freelance guys churning out great stuff.

I think these rants are just a reaction from those of us who want to remain competitive. As Priest said above, I too do not wish to change careers and become a full-blown vfx guy, but I do recognize the need to (and would like to) strengthen those abilities. C4D has always been the tool of choice for the freelance generalist. What it means to be a generalist now and 5 or 6 years ago has changed. C4D has done an excellent job over the years keeping up with the changing needs of its user base, and I guess I (we) just hope it continues to do so.


I'm sure it will continue to grow too, and I wish I had some clue as to where that growth will happen.
I have grown up with CINEMA, 10 years now, like most of you...I'm not totally clueless to how things work
But, this thread was about getting you help...but then quickly degraded into "MAXON doesn't listen to VFX pros". Which is no longer beneficial to anyone.
As a VFX artist part of your job is working within / around the limitations of the program, or using something that works...makes me feel like I must be failing in the VFX world because I don't have so much to complain about as others.
I mean David was gracious enough to help...but now people are on the attack.
seriously...it just reminds me why I try to stay off forums.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:55 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tyler Durden
I brought up sculpting to show you, that your general reasoning on dedicated apps, so maxon doesnt need to implement this or that doesn't make sense.. it was just easier to integrate the sculpting than rewriting or updating TP obviously..


First, MAXON had NO sculpting, but DID have particles.
Now they have sculpting AND particles.
Both DO NOT surpass dedicated apps.
...and maybe it was easier to implement sculpting than it was to re-write / update TP. hmmm.
Maybe the guy that wrote sculpting knows nothing about TP or particles to begin with...if that is the case there is obviously no time lost there.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:59 PM   #44
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...anyway

David--thanks again for offering to help. Its apparently easier for me to type up forum commentaries than it is to get a file ready to send off. Will do so today.

Thanks again
 
Old 01-24-2013, 04:09 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obeardy
I have not stated any of those things or implied them (not intentionally at least) or anything else. I was actually interested in the rendering speed of Krakatoa, no more, no less. Call it a hobby of mine, this has nothing to do with my own plugins.

Thanks for the info you did give, good luck with your venture.


Sure, Thanks, you too!
 
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