Rendering hair with particles/tracer just plain buggy in R14

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Old 01 January 2013   #16
Well there might be a Krakatoa plugin coming for Houdini as well..
Using Krakatoa within Cinema 4D is just as good as TP and particle handling itself..

Maxon failed at paying attention to the vfx pros it seems..
 
Old 01 January 2013   #17
Originally Posted by Mr.Tyler Durden: Maxon failed at paying attention to the vfx pros it seems..


lol. Were they ever even trying?

The VFX market is dominated by Houdini, Maya, and XSI.
Those are big names to try and go toe to toe with.

I think MAXON chose their initial market very well...and by providing Alembic support have given users the ability to easily integrate with any of those packages.
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Old 01 January 2013   #18
I haven't had a chance to test out Alembic yet. My hope eventually is to design environments in C4D and to project the results in another app, overlaying the particle effects directly, eliminating the need for 2D composition most of the time. But neither FBX/Collada would give a perfect camera matched setup to make this an easy process.
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Last edited by ThePriest : 01 January 2013 at 05:28 AM.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #19
>what the industry considers heavy particle work.

what does this industry consider to be heavy particle work?



regards
Paul

Last edited by tapaul : 01 January 2013 at 01:41 AM.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #20
Originally Posted by tapaul: >what the industry considers heavy particle work.

what does this industry consider to be heavy particle work?



regards
Paul



Well here's one example.
https://vimeo.com/56001387

And to your comment asking why one would choose c4d to do this kind of work..I think its more so that some users have begun to evolve beyond the abilities of c4d (or at least desire to), yet have already invested many years and dollars. Of course we would hope that the software will evolve with us (as it continually has over the last decade), Perhaps an unrealistic hope.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #21
Originally Posted by tapaul: >
what does this industry consider to be heavy particle work?


FX scenes driven by the powerhouse simulators like Houdini, XSI, Max (well Max's plugins anyway) that can far out perform C4D due to its current limitations. I think you know the answer to the question.

Before you edited your post, you said if I wanted to do vfx work, then Cinema was the wrong choice. I'm not interested in a full blown career in vfx, otherwise I'd have chosen something more suited to the task. I'm quite happy in C4D doing environment work and motion graphics for a living. It's just a slight shame to have to pick up another package if I want to take those scenes to the next level.

Perhaps it's no small undertaking, but I don't think it's unfair for users to expect that Maxon should address this problem within the next few releases. They need to implement a modern approach to these problems, before Modo or God forbid, Blender beats us to it.
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Last edited by ThePriest : 01 January 2013 at 02:10 AM.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #22
>Well here's one example.
>https://vimeo.com/56001387

awesome.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #23
Originally Posted by Mr.Tyler Durden:

Yeah of course not... lol

:P


Nice. So the plug renders particle dot/sprites as well as volumetric from within c4d. I did not know that--in fact I wasn't sure what the plugin did until looking at your stills. Does the rendering rely on Deadline or is that just a render manager option? Any plans for a Frost plugin you may have heard of?
 
Old 01 January 2013   #24
Originally Posted by Mr.Tyler Durden:

Yeah of course not... lol

:P


Hold up, I didn't see an image attachment on this last night.
Where is this preview|plugin coming from?
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Old 01 January 2013   #25
Originally Posted by ThePriest: Krakatoa for C4D? Surely not.

- Surely not
 
Old 01 January 2013   #26
Originally Posted by ThePriest: I haven't had a chance to test out Alembic yet. My hope eventually is to design environments in C4D and to project the results in another app, overlaying the particle effects directly, eliminating the need for 2D composition most of the time. But neither FBX/Collada would give a perfect camera matched setup to make this an easy process.


You really should try it out.
It is the ultimate caching / exchange format.
It will greatly expand your ability to work between programs.

Like...houdini, for example, may have AMAZING particle tools...but most are lost inside it for doing modeling, etc. But using Alembic to transfer data to houdini is a huge help.

Brian Horgan had been using Alembic to pass his models from cinema -> maya ->back to cinema.

Others are using alembic to cache dynamics, particles, etc.

The great thing is also that Alembic is a format governed by studios...NOT by Autodesk.
So there is less chance of it breaking constantly.
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Old 01 January 2013   #27
Originally Posted by ThePriest: FX scenes driven by the powerhouse simulators like Houdini, XSI, Max (well Max's plugins anyway) that can far out perform C4D due to its current limitations. I think you know the answer to the question.

Before you edited your post, you said if I wanted to do vfx work, then Cinema was the wrong choice. I'm not interested in a full blown career in vfx, otherwise I'd have chosen something more suited to the task. I'm quite happy in C4D doing environment work and motion graphics for a living. It's just a slight shame to have to pick up another package if I want to take those scenes to the next level.

Perhaps it's no small undertaking, but I don't think it's unfair for users to expect that Maxon should address this problem within the next few releases. They need to implement a modern approach to these problems, before Modo or God forbid, Blender beats us to it.


I think the biggest issue is that I don't think MAXON has a user base that would take advantage of 100+ million particles....or that would be willing to wait 100 hours for a simulation.

The ROI for the research, coding, testing, etc, would probably be minimal / non-existent.
Users are not going to leave houdini / XSI / Maya for C4D's imaginary new particle system...so it would only benefit current users...and frankly that is maybe 10-15 people I can think of off the top of my head.

Also, using another package is a given in this industry.
Even Durden's example of NAIAD...it is a separate app...that cost as much as any of the full 3D packages...same thing with realflow.

Houdini does particles, and dynamics, but that is about all it is used for...so again...you need another app.

Max needs a plugin (s)

I don't want to be defensive, but I think that often these topics can lose perspective, and quickly become alarmist in tone...when they really don't need to be.

Anyway, I love seeing your work, and I would love to see you do some crazy particle work...regardless of the app it is done in
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Old 01 January 2013   #28
The thing is, that Maxon stays behind the competition, be it native or plugin based.

Last year it may have been 10-15 users, this group grows as quickly as the demands and standards also for particles and vfx work, based on what current software solutions can achieve.

XSI has ICE, Houdini has particle tools that actually rival Naiad, Maya and Max have more/better plugins to choose from on the simulation and rendering side.

Although I put a lot of effort to enhance the RealFlow plugin for C4D in the recent years, as well as RFRK so to speak, it always stayed bound to the TP limitation in speed, workflow, comfort and scalability.

So right now Im simply not able to work in Cinema 4D with the simulations that I can create in less than 10 ! hours on one machine, as the particles are multiple times more than what Cinema 4D can practically handle. You are talking about 100 million particles, Cinema 4D doesnt even support more than 10 million due to its TP limit and sluggish performance.

Maxon could never get this userbase to grow as they never offered extensive support.. its one way or the other to look at this problem.

All I am saying is, to people who are asking / demanding for solutions on their particle based problems, that Cinema 4D is the bottleneck here. So there is no use for plugins, or fancy rendering techniques that have to rely on an ancient TP module in the first place.

So Chi actually says: use other softwares for this kind or work. "Crazy particle work"...
 
Old 01 January 2013   #29
Originally Posted by chi: I think the biggest issue is that I don't think MAXON has a user base that would take advantage of 100+ million particles....or that would be willing to wait 100 hours for a simulation.



i think 1-10 million particles renderd with DOF and Motionblur in a resanoble time would be a nice thing and i can imagine that a lot of C4D-Users would be very happy with that.
not only 10-15 Hardcore-Particlenerds...
but even this "minimal target" is still not possible with cinema.

Last edited by useruser : 01 January 2013 at 01:59 PM.
 
Old 01 January 2013   #30
check the 2nd screenshot, Krakatoa can render roughly 28 millions in 2 minutes.. inside Cinema 4D, alhough be it generated from Krakatoa this time.. DOF wouldnt be a problem either
 
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