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Old 01-06-2013, 07:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katachi
Net rendering is free for Effex. Download the demo, install, render. Everyone can use it on NET free of charge, on as many clients as you like.


What about farms without Net Render like Render Rocket? Will you provide a free solution for that? And are you keeping the free render nodes model for the future?
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:44 PM   #17
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@Joel I have not tried 2012 on a farm but historically it worked fine.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:57 PM   #18
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A major thing you have to consider in any of the plugins is would you be able to use that solution outside of Net Render. Render King is the only Cinema 4D exclusive render farm I'm aware of and the only farm that uses Net Render. All other farms basically use a command line or proprietary approach that allows them to farm render anything, and it's no guarantee that any plugin will run at all outside of Net Render without some sort of baked or cached feature. The specs and demands are getting worse while deadlines and expectations of clients remain as if it was the same climate as 5 years ago. It's getting harder to get projects done and profitable with a few local machines and RenderKing.
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:02 PM   #19
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I've witnessed fluid sim jobs from several vantage points. From doing them myself to being part of a pipeline where someone else did the sims, to watching a friend's job go into meltdown because the fluid work wasn't meeting the clients expectations. Here are some thoughts.

While rendering fluids is tricky, it's a knowable time frame. But simulation time isn't. I've run sims overnight expecting them to be done in the morning only to find the frame time has quadrupled and I'm nowhere near done. A fluids expert might see this coming, but not always. And sims require lots of refining. As far as I know fluid sims have to be sequential, so there's no way to split the sim over several machines.

There's no such thing as a low-res sim test. Well there is, but it's not going to tell you enough about the sim to be very useful. Good sims need lots of detail and that takes time.

Simulating real fluids is easy. Simulating what your client wants isn't. Anyone can grab a copy of realflow and simulate a glass of water filling up. But what happens when your client asks for the splash to happen in a certain way? Or for a droplet to behave just so? I watched a project go from piece of cake to utter nightmare in a few days because the client was asking for something physically impossible.

Fluids on their own are never enough. A decent bit of fluid work will need a lot of post. You'll need to use the different output files your sim creates. Wet maps, foam maps, meshes, particles, a good fluid comp will take these and produce something magical. Realflow can produce these. But beware, their integration into C4D is not perfect. You will need time to test them. For instance it took me two days to figure out a workflow for using Realflow's wet maps in C4D.

Before you use a fluid sim on a job, think about whether it really has to be a sim. I've jumped into Realflow a few times only to realise a few days layer that I could have done it better another way.

I hope that's useful.

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Old 01-06-2013, 09:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokosing
I've witnessed fluid sim jobs from several vantage points. From doing them myself to being part of a pipeline where someone else did the sims, to watching a friend's job go into meltdown because the fluid work wasn't meeting the clients expectations. Here are some thoughts.

While rendering fluids is tricky, it's a knowable time frame. But simulation time isn't. I've run sims overnight expecting them to be done in the morning only to find the frame time has quadrupled and I'm nowhere near done. A fluids expert might see this coming, but not always. And sims require lots of refining. As far as I know fluid sims have to be sequential, so there's no way to split the sim over several machines.

There's no such thing as a low-res sim test. Well there is, but it's not going to tell you enough about the sim to be very useful. Good sims need lots of detail and that takes time.

Simulating real fluids is easy. Simulating what your client wants isn't. Anyone can grab a copy of realflow and simulate a glass of water filling up. But what happens when your client asks for the splash to happen in a certain way? Or for a droplet to behave just so? I watched a project go from piece of cake to utter nightmare in a few days because the client was asking for something physically impossible.

Fluids on their own are never enough. A decent bit of fluid work will need a lot of post. You'll need to use the different output files your sim creates. Wet maps, foam maps, meshes, particles, a good fluid comp will take these and produce something magical. Realflow can produce these. But beware, their integration into C4D is not perfect. You will need time to test them. For instance it took me two days to figure out a workflow for using Realflow's wet maps in C4D.

Before you use a fluid sim on a job, think about whether it really has to be a sim. I've jumped into Realflow a few times only to realise a few days layer that I could have done it better another way.

I hope that's useful.

Will


This is all pure gold--thank you Will.

I am usually able to work out a good solution that the client is satisfied with using only particles, mograph tools and sometimes just with deformers. Of course they've all been pretty simple cheats (a liquid pour with animated deformers, a splashing eye drop, running rivers and streams, things like this). I think it is always good practice to see if you can pull something off quickly and effectively with the tools we have before resorting to sims.

Your comments about getting a sim looking good right off the bat, only to have a client ask for specific subjective changes is a scenario I know well--as do many of us I'm sure. This also goes for any kind of GI or physical rendering approach, particle work, etc when under a tight deadline.

And this is one reason I try to steer clear of sims, or anything that is not tried and true where I have complete control and know I can get it to render quickly. I will definitely keep these suggestions in mind, as should we all.

Thanks.
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Last edited by JoelDubin : 01-06-2013 at 09:22 PM.
 
Old 01-06-2013, 09:24 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyan
@Joel I have not tried 2012 on a farm but historically it worked fine.


Thanks Troyan

Thanks also @PhoenixCG for your comments and suggestions
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:00 AM   #22
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To will's point, we recently gave up on using a fluid sim entirely on a project because the client was very specific on what they wanted the liquid to do and wound up faking the whole thing in AE. They were very happy with the result and it was pretty low stress.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:12 AM   #23
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How did you fake liquids in AE? Would love to see that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyan
To will's point, we recently gave up on using a fluid sim entirely on a project because the client was very specific on what they wanted the liquid to do and wound up faking the whole thing in AE. They were very happy with the result and it was pretty low stress.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:54 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustardseed
How did you fake liquids in AE? Would love to see that!

Ill post a link tomorrow with a more in-depth explanation, but if you go to our site and click on the icon of the naked dude standing in the "T" position against the blue back, about in the middle we simulate bone paste being squirted through a cannulated screw into a bone fracture cavity. Animations link
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:27 PM   #25
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Something to consider once you have a Real Flow mesh in c4d - It helps to have your .bin sequence on a fast Solid State Drive as the .bin files are so heavy it can slow down the editor view as it tries the read the files.

Also worth remembering that a typical high resolution Real Flow mesh of around 10 seconds could be up to 5GB and possibly much more. If you are using a remote render farm it could be tricky to upload a massive .bin sequence.

I know Net Rendering is possible on Windows but I've not found a way for Mac OSX to see the .bin sequence on my local Net Render clients. Has anyone got Net Render and Real Flow .bins to work on mac?

Found these plugins really helpful to control the simulations especially IoWaterBlast for controlling splashing :
http://www.iosim.dk/page3.html

Apart from all the hassle its hard to beat RF for most tasks so take the plunge (man jumps into giant vat of porridge - simulation time: 1 week)
 
Old 01-07-2013, 02:29 PM   #26
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Scouring the internet for resources, I found something of interest for those going the blender route. Here is a blog post summarizing a workflow for blender fluids in c4d using a custom xref tool. Example is a bit dodgy, but its worth checking out.

http://paengpaeng.com/2008/09/blend...-the-next-step/
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:49 PM   #27
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Isn't the new pCache plugin supposed to read Realflow Bin files? Has anyone tried that?
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:49 PM   #28
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Care to give it a try Troyan?
I was also wondering if there is an Alembic export option from Realflow besides the bin sequence


By the way--pCache looks great. Fast and user friendly.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:05 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelOtron
Care to give it a try Troyan?
I was also wondering if there is an Alembic export option from Realflow besides the bin sequence


By the way--pCache looks great. Fast and user friendly.


I'd love to except for 2 major problems

Don't have RealFlow 2012

We have the biggest project deadline our company has every seen due at the end of the month. I'd love to, I just can't fit it in.

:P
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:56 PM   #30
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If Naid is fully integrated into 3ds Max why would an Autodesk user buy Real Flow? especially as its so costly. NextLimit will be thinking what impact that will have on sales.

Hopefully Maxon are working on an overhauled Thinking Particles system so they may as well go the extra mile and integrate a decent fluid sim while they are at it. Makes sense for Maxon and NextLimit to jump into bed? Just a thought.
 
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