Future Of Cinema 4D

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  05 May 2013
Have you also heard the biblical phrase 'turn the other cheek'?

Originally Posted by jumamu: I agree I was just joking with the true things of america because somebody (from america) started to insult germans. I believe to the justice of "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"..

Do the same unto others as you would have them do unto you.. i am not religious guy but this is quite good wisdom

But sure it would be nice to stay in topic. But it looks like the topic have been already finished.
 
  05 May 2013
Cinema has no future
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  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by littledevil: you get it, that this is pretty offensive ? would you like blabbing me some racist stereotypes about canadians ? i guess not.


You know what, I'm deeply offended that you got offended by a phrase like that. Please don't offend me anymore by being so "delicate" about stereotypes. Stereotypes exist for a reason and in most cases are very accurate. Can they be unfair sometimes? Sure. That's why we have brains that can detect when something falls outside their rules. The only reason they are considered a "negative" thing by some is because of the tyranny with manners of political correctness. I'm offended by those who think stereotypes are bad and "racist", so please stop.


.

Last edited by Nanome : 05 May 2013 at 07:22 PM.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by AntimatterVFX: If you are very very happy with R15 because it has greatly improved object handling speed and multi-threading that would strike a chord with whole C4D user base.

But if you're very very happy because you've piled on a load of half baked features on top of the same single threaded core then, Germany you have a problem...

The complexity of motion graphics presentations and the expectations of those commissioning them are increasing faster than Maxon is developing C4D. It's 2013 and single threading is so last century.

Don't let it be a surprise when users leave the platform like when everyone ditched LW all those years ago. Going from the ubiquitous solution to an also ran can happen very very quickly and that won't make you very very happy.


Excellent post.
 
  05 May 2013
I totally agree with you Nanome. It seems these days people are just waiting to be offended. So what? Grow a thicker skin and get on with it.

Originally Posted by Nanome: You know what, I'm deeply offended that you got offended by a phrase like that. Please don't offend me anymore by being so "delicate" about stereotypes. Stereotypes exist for a reason and in most cases are very accurate. Can they be unfair sometimes? Sure. That's why we have brains that can detect when something falls outside their rules. The only reason they are considered a "negative" thing by some is because of the tyranny with manners of political correctness. I'm offended by those who think stereotypes are bad and "racist", so please stop.


.
 
  05 May 2013
Quote: The complexity of motion graphics presentations and the expectations of those commissioning them are increasing faster than Maxon is developing C4D


It's the same with character work. You get a brief from a client like 'hey we want an animated character to promote our brand, we work with Cinema 4D here and we prefer that you work with that too while on the project'. As a freelancer you say great, some animation work, so you take on the job. Then the client comes back with 'actually the powers that be have changed the brief, now they want 8 monkeys jumping around in the background as well as that main character, you can do that right?'. And your heart sinks, because you know that yes, you can do that, but if you are working in C4D with 9 character rigs in the scene you are going to have 3-4 fps at best in the scene while working on the shots and it's going to be like swimming though treacle to get it done.

So for me if R15 is mainly about modeling improvements (my spider-senses tell me that it seems likely) then it's going to make almost no difference for the typical work I do, or the typical work a mograph or VFX artist does. Clients are demanding more and more from content creators and so those creators are demanding more and more from the programs they use. Look at the typical commercial with CG characters on TV these days, they almost look like CG movies from a few years ago. The standard has shot up while the budget (ie time frame) has shrunk.

The only really significant improvement for me in the last several versions of C4D is the introduction of Alembic as it means that I can do more of the character work in Maya and then just export the characters out for my clients to render in C4D, but on many jobs that's not practical as the characters are already rigged in C4D or they want to handle a percentage of the animation in house etc etc.

So, please Maxon, just make C4D faster somehow, then we all have a rosy future with it.

Cheers,
Brian

Last edited by Horganovski : 05 May 2013 at 08:35 PM.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Nanome: Excellent post.


From what I can tell Maxon is doing very well and if anything Cinema is becoming bigger -- not smaller. I wouldn't say it's ubiquitous in broadcast, but it's heading that way. Can't say I agree with some of their recent decisions, but I'd say that any conjecture over Maxon's demise is without basis.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Horganovski: It's the same with character work. You get a brief from a client like 'hey we want an animated character to promote our brand, we work with Cinema 4D here and we prefer that you work with that too while on the project'. As a freelancer you say great, some animation work, so you take on the job. Then the client comes back with 'actually the powers that be have changed the brief, now they want 8 monkeys jumping around in the background as well as that main character, you can do that right?'. And your heart sinks, because you know that yes, you can do that, but if you are working in C4D with 9 character rigs in the scene you are going to have 3-4 fps at best in the scene while working on the shots and it's going to be like swimming though treacle to get it done.

So for me if R15 is mainly about modeling improvements (my spider-senses tell me that it seems likely) then it's going to make almost no difference for the typical work I do, or the typical work a mograph or VFX artist does. Clients are demanding more and more from content creators and so those creators are demanding more and more from the programs they use. Look at the typical commercial with CG characters on TV these days, they almost look like CG movies from a few years ago. The standard has shot up while the budget (ie time frame) has shrunk.

The only really significant improvement for me in the last several versions of C4D is the introduction of Alembic as it means that I can do more of the character work in Maya and then just export the characters out for my clients to render in C4D, but on many jobs that's not practical as the characters are already rigged in C4D or they want to handle a percentage of the animation in house etc etc.

So, please Maxon, just make C4D faster somehow, then we all have a rosy future with it.

Cheers,
Brian


Cinema has never been a go-to application for character work, but perhaps it could be with some serious speed improvements. Obviously it can't compete with Maya in that area, but I think you'd have to say that it's a hell of a lot closer today than it was 10 years ago.

I disagree with the idea that Cinema isn't keeping up with motion graphics artists. Most of the mographers I work with are just scratching the surface of what C4D can do, and they sure aren't going to jump ship to Maya, Houdini, or SI.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by bobtronic: Cinema has no future


lol



Although I can understand some "modern" attitudes expressed here which lean toward conclusion that what doesn't bother one specifically is ok behavior, or that manners and being polite is form of tyranny, folks, please bear in mind that not all people are the same. We do not all share same culture, heritage, race, nurture etc. and something that may seem completely insignificant from your perspective can in fact be quite offending to another person. Good practice is to never post something that you would not say to a stranger you just met in person, where on forum people give themselves "latitude" since there are no repercussions.
Offending someone by not knowing that you in fact offended him is honest mistake that nobody will resent, where on other hand, deliberate devaluation of opinions that are not inline with your own can be considered to be very bad behavior here where I live.
I leave the option that it is not the case elsewhere, but I am pretty sure that being polite in general, and trying not to make another person feel less valuable or not comfortable is universal quality.


Back to topic. One thing I sincerely regret is that I won't be able to do cafe R15 review this year due to obvious reasons. It would have been so much fun

@Brian

Yep, somehow people didn't get excited about Alembic. For me this was a god send to exchange assets easily.
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  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by hsrdelic: @Brian
Yep, somehow people didn't get excited about Alembic. For me this was a god send to exchange assets easily.


Well, I guess it's not that 'sexy' as new features go, but it's certainly made a huge difference for me. It's a pity as I made a presentation last year at the Maxon UK training day where I showed some cool uses of it as well as a workaround for one of the limitations with it, but that video has not been released for public viewing as the ones I did the previous year were, so only a handful of people saw that.

I did make these simpler videos which were seen though.
https://vimeo.com/46766746
https://vimeo.com/47141032
 
  05 May 2013
cinema is awesome programm. market of motion design is yours. keep it up maxon.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by AdamT: Cinema has never been a go-to application for character work, but perhaps it could be with some serious speed improvements. Obviously it can't compete with Maya in that area, but I think you'd have to say that it's a hell of a lot closer today than it was 10 years ago.

I disagree with the idea that Cinema isn't keeping up with motion graphics artists. Most of the mographers I work with are just scratching the surface of what C4D can do, and they sure aren't going to jump ship to Maya, Houdini, or SI.


Yeah, let's defend Maxon's right not to deliver best in class performance because they never have. Why can't it compete with Maya? Why should Maxon customer accept second best in viewport performance?

This video is a good example of why we had to look elsewhere. https://vimeo.com/57005606 I've seen this RTed in twitter lots recently, it's bloody beautiful work.

Many will argue that a lot of what is in here could be done in C4D, yep, but can you imagine the joyless state it would take you to in the viewport as you're finessing the work. A bit a TP and a bit of tracer easy eh? I recreated the metal cube ocean scene and it was abysmal in C4D.

The people commissioning work aren't trawling Vimeo and YT for work done in C4D they're actively looking for the best examples of the state of art. If we're approached to do a show opener for some city awards bash the creative director will come with a whole bunch of clips and ideas based on what's trending not what we can easily cope with in C4D. We're either able to do the work in the time available or we lose the work. C**ting around in a viewport at <1 fps no longer fits the bill.

Even if you aren't throwing massive amounts of objects or particles around wouldn't you prefer to work in a more fluid viewport? Surely there's not one person who is going to argue that 12 fps was good enough for my Dad and his Dad before him so it's good enough for me!

On the same hardware Softimage runs rings around C4D so why is it such a revolutionary or controversial request for a similar level of performance when it would so dramatically change what you can do and increase the level of complexity to your projects? Slouchcorp have given you a taste of what's possible.

Maybe it's impossible as Tapaul wrote in another thread all the dynamics engines are all different written by different people and maybe there's a monumental job of despaghettification of the code that only a unified dynamics system could provide? That's my take not Tapaul's BTW.

Maybe there will never be better viewport speed but maybe you don't care.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by AntimatterVFX: Many will argue that a lot of what is in here could be done in C4D, yep, but can you imagine the joyless state it would take you to in the viewport as you're finessing the work. A bit a TP and a bit of tracer easy eh? I recreated the metal cube ocean scene and it was abysmal in C4D.

The people commissioning work aren't trawling Vimeo and YT for work done in C4D they're actively looking for the best examples of the state of art. If we're approached to do a show opener for some city awards bash the creative director will come with a whole bunch of clips and ideas based on what's trending not what we can easily cope with in C4D. We're either able to do the work in the time available or we lose the work. C**ting around in a viewport at <1 fps no longer fits the bill.

Even if you aren't throwing massive amounts of objects or particles around wouldn't you prefer to work in a more fluid viewport? Surely there's not one person who is going to argue that 12 fps was good enough for my Dad and his Dad before him so it's good enough for me!




Only thing I want to see improved in C4D is viewport and playback performance. I've used 3ds max for years and years and recently starting incorporating some c4d into my work, because we bought some license at my studio.

I seriously have no idea how anyone can work in that program. You can't even get realtime playback with some simple setups. The best thing it has going for it is mograph. Unfortunately, it's just so hard to build up some complexity and keep it realtime in the viewport. It's kind of ridiculous. I think it's because everything can interact and connect with anything else, via tags and what-not - which is cool, because it's very easy to setup some cool effects, but at the cost of performance? No thanks.

Last edited by Srek : 05 May 2013 at 05:54 AM. Reason: Quoteformat fixed
 
  05 May 2013
That is an insanely cool motion graphics demo reel.
I agree with many of your points, but not your delivery.
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  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by ThePriest: That is an insanely cool motion graphics demo reel.
I agree with many of your points, but not your delivery.


Indeed it was a super cool reel. Anyone know what they were using? I'd life to see some behind the scenes stuff.
 
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