Future Of Cinema 4D

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  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Lagavulin16: I've heard that the problem is when you have lots of objects, but that hasn't been my experience at all. I'm not dealing with hundreds of objects, just create a grid array with some effectors and camera motion and some other objects and I'm not getting realtime playback anymore. I'm coming from 3ds Max, so maybe it's just me expecting too much. I don't know, but I find it pretty impossible to use - for animation anyway.


Yes, Effectors and Mograph-Cloners will slow down quite a bit. Mograph is not the fastest system.
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  05 May 2013
The number of objects includes clones and instances. So a simple grid cloner at 100x100x100 might not seem much, but thats a million objects, dont expect this to be in any way workable.

If you need large numbers of objects, particles are much more workable. Even the old particle system will chew through 100's of thousands
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  05 May 2013
Always make sure to enable Render Instances on Cloner objects unless you're using multishader or some other effect that isn't supported by render instances. This option dramatically reduces the number of virtual objects in the cache and speeds things up considerably.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Srek: It's not realy the viewport that is the problem but the underlying object system. This makes it a very difficult problem to resolve since it effects literally every aspect of the application. Yes we are very much aware of the problem and we want to see it resolved. You can imagine though that something that has such a huge impact on the application on so many levels, will not be changed lightheartedly.
Cheers
Björn


first of all I want to say that this is the most honest and optimistic thing I've heard from Maxon employe ( thanks Björn ). I think that this is very important aspect for many artist using any kind of tool to work freely and to be able to experiment without being afraid of hitting inpenetrable performance wall.

I agree that slow but consistent development is better than quick and dirty one but underlaying structure of software is even harder to improve when massive tool-set grows around it. This means that with every release it will be harder to tackle that task.
 
  05 May 2013
Quote: Had he mentioned Germans' predisposition for placing towels on swimming pool sunbeds in the early hours of the morning I could understand your ire, but he didn't.


*Walks down to the pool at 5am to get a decent sun lounger*... "Oh god dammit!"

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  05 May 2013
For me over the last few years C4D has become a hub/link type app. This is no bad thing since its so stable...eg test a quick render in c4d then maybe output it to a dedicated 3rd party renderer....model something in a dedicated 3rd part app like zbrush..import and setup scenes etc...then render out etc. its that sort central hub/link...its some some stuff really when but often times i find myself moving in or out of another app and bringing or sending resources back and forth using C4D. Is that a bad thing longer term possibly since as the other apps become more mature those functions maybe available natively in them anyway. Where will that leave C4D who knows. Take Bodypaint hot property a few years ago now thing like mari or zbrush and some of these tools eat market share. The same for native renderer the credit goes to maxon for making out links to external renderers to good but likewise the native renders market share diminishes. I guess the question is more an industry wide one that specific to C4D in reality.

These things are cyclic to some extent some of the last couple of releases failed to impress me but others who had been waiting for various functions for years where stoked. C4D has been very good at being all things to all men whether that is sustainable again its an industry specific type question rather than just maxons. I'd always encourage maxon to keep it stable, keep it nimble or lean/mean approach but also do not deliver feature lists which disappoint as the function only ends up working in the next/next release down the line. Deliver quality since ultimately when i open the tin I want to see I got what I was sold. Years ago it was lightwave vs cinema4d and for me that battle was won by maxon..however the modo-spawned-lightwave-love-child looks like it has damaged our relaxed little maxon buddies...also the merger/buyout of some industry heavy weights has changed the landscape a little more maxon...opening more opportunities but also narrowing competitors focus on maxon more.
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  05 May 2013
Turks do the same on both sea and pool sides

Originally Posted by imashination: *Walks down to the pool at 5am to get a decent sun lounger*... "Oh god dammit!"

 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by hsrdelic: @AntimatterVFX...snip
I just stated that I am very, very happy with R15 and that is a fact - it is right up my alley. It would be the same if I was not working for Maxon. Just sit back, relax and wait for release then make a judgement call based on facts - that would be reasonable move, right? ...snip
.


It is a good thing that you have shared your comments about a version of R15. But a comment like this will not go easy for some people because of a few things:

- You have more information than most people reading this thread about a product at this particular time
- Those people also know that you will not go into any detail about why you are very happy with R15. This is the opposite to the kind of activity that normally happens in a thread. Normally, you would explain why you find something to be much better.
- It might be best to not mention anything at all about R15 including how well it is going for you when most people here will not have that capability for another few months.

What I do like about this thread so far, is understanding the kinds of things certain improvements in C4D might mean such as the comment by Shrek concerning the the object viewport issue.

Since R15 does not exist for most of us, and you and others cannot really comment on it beyond how well is it going for you, then let's focus more on current issues with R14 and insight into strategies for dealing with perceived limitations.
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Last edited by Continuumx : 05 May 2013 at 10:04 PM.
 
  05 May 2013
Since we are talking about the future of C4D, what would be the implications of version numbering go away and instead continuous updates that match the maintenance program?

I would not be sure how you handle those that are not on the current version, I assume you could look at what E-on is doing with Vue. As long you have the current version, you pay a yearly maintenance and always get the latest updates including new version full releases. The new version full releases usually contain a few new features plus all of the previous continuous releases from the previous year. The users who were not on maintenance only receive those features from the previous year plus a few new features when they opt in for the yearly upgrade.

The discussion is really about the issues concerning continuous updates year round versus yearly single update. Continuous updates in this discussion include new features and bug fixes. The discussion is not about the relevance of the cost/price for C4D.
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Last edited by Continuumx : 05 May 2013 at 09:32 PM.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Continuumx: It is a good thing that you have shared your comments about a version of R15. But a comment like this will not go easy for some people because of a few things:

- You have more information than most people reading this thread about a product at this particular time
- Those people also know that you will not go into any detail about why you are very happy with R15
- It might be best to not mention anything at all about R15 including how well it is going for you when most people here will not have that capability for another few months.


True. I should have thought about that. The reason why I didn't probably lies in the fact that even before I was in beta my conclusions about development were in fact - correct, so I was never thinking about how what you stated above could affect others. Somehow I always had good predictions of development.
Couple of things I would like to add just as openly as Srek did is that people developing Cinema are very, very smart and capable and are perfectly aware of everything regarding Cinema 4D. I mean, at the end, they created it , right?
Luckily, I had the pleasure meeting most of them and I can safely conclude that there are a lot of people there that fall into genius category and some of them even beyond that.
There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that Cinema 4D has a bright future and I will give my 110% to contribute to that.

Cheers
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  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by hsrdelic: True. I should have thought about that. The reason why I didn't probably lies in the fact that even before I was in beta my conclusions about development were in fact - correct, so I was never thinking about how what you stated above could affect others. Somehow I always had good predictions of development.
Couple of things I would like to add just as openly as Srek did is that people developing Cinema are very, very smart and capable and are perfectly aware of everything regarding Cinema 4D. I mean, at the end, they created it , right?
Luckily, I had the pleasure meeting most of them and I can safely conclude that there are a lot of people there that fall into genius category and some of them even beyond that.
There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that Cinema 4D has a bright future and I will give my 110% to contribute to that.

Cheers



Now that is a great follow-up!

Thanks!
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  05 May 2013
The future of C4D - I think it has to continue to be about the ease of use. That is what made me immediately call up Maxon and close the deal with Rafi a long time ago.

Its more about the ease of use as it interfaces with complexity, deep connectivity, and other new features that come down the line. I knew within 15 mins of using C4D that this program thinks like I do more so than other softwares like 3DSMAX.

However deep the tools continue to become as long as the ease and accessibility of the interface, responsiveness, and connectivity are at the top it really does not matter the form that these may take. The form that these elements take are evident in features that support animation, motion graphics, archvis, rendering, etc.

If animators or motiongraphics users can use tools that archvis users are normally associated with using and archvis or archdesigner users can use tools that animators or motiongraphics users are normally associated with using then what that means is the tools and features are transferable, easy, accessible, complex, connective, responsive, and innovative.
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Last edited by Continuumx : 05 May 2013 at 10:39 PM.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Continuumx: Since we are talking about the future of C4D, what would be the implications of version numbering go away and instead continuous updates that match the maintenance program?

I would not be sure how you handle those that are not on the current version, I assume you could look at what E-on is doing with Vue. As long you have the current version, you pay a yearly maintenance and always get the latest updates including new version full releases. The new version full releases usually contain a few new features plus all of the previous continuous releases from the previous year. The users who were not on maintenance only receive those features from the previous year plus a few new features when they opt in for the yearly upgrade.

The discussion is really about the issues concerning continuous updates year round versus yearly single update. Continuous updates in this discussion include new features and bug fixes. The discussion is not about the relevance of the cost/price for C4D.

This is one of the issues that Adobe addresses by going the route of monthly subscriptions. While seen by many as a very negative step it does allow Adobe to deliver continous updates and improvements. Unfortunately over a decade ago the highly unethical practices of the company Enron, lead to much tightened tax laws that basically forbid a company to increase the functionality of a software after it has been sold. It also limits severly what kind of services you can offer after purchase. The MSA with it's yearly maintainance contract does help a bit, but a shorter (monthly) subscription is basically the best way to deliver a product that is in constant development. I'm not sure users would appreciate the move towards such a system though, to strong is the feeling of the manufacturer trying to control the user, regardless of the real intentions. Offering both options will increase the workload for the manufacturer by a good deal, thereby increasing prices.
To me it currently looks like a loose/loose scenario :(

Cheers
Björn
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  05 May 2013
Just look at the heat Adobe is taking over the move to Creative Cloud. Users are up with pitchforks and knives, threatening to topple the evil, greedy empire by boycotting Creative Cloud and jumping ship to viable alternatives like Pixelmator and Gimp.


Originally Posted by Srek: I'm not sure users would appreciate the move towards such a system though, to strong is the feeling of the manufacturer trying to control the user, regardless of the real intentions. Offering both options will increase the workload for the manufacturer by a good deal, thereby increasing prices.
To me it currently looks like a loose/loose scenario :(
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  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by mustardseed: Just look at the heat Adobe is taking over the move to Creative Cloud. Users are up with pitchforks and knives, threatening to topple the evil, greedy empire by boycotting Creative Cloud and jumping ship to viable alternatives like Pixelmator and Gimp.


It is interesting hearing Srek's insight about the constraints of selling software. Good to hear the other side and what the potential benefits might be for the customer if a plan similar to Adobe's CC happens for c4d.

Annual budgets (even quarterly) are much easier to manage and plan for than monthly. Maybe it becomes more of an issue when you are a studio with several seats to pay for, or on the other end, the part time freelancer.

I'm not planning on switching, I'll probably adjust like we all seem to do in the end as there really are no other alternatives anyway in the Adobe case. But it has rightfully resulted in a lot of artists, and studios stopping to think how it will impact them, and consider alternatives that are more in line with their own business plans. If there are any.

I get it--everything's going to the cloud. This subscription model seems to be the future. It will be an adjustment.

If we apply this model to C4D, besides the possible financial adjustment for the customers, monthly updates could affect those who rely on various plugins and those needing to update their render farms on a regular basis. Also there is the mid-project update issue that no one wants to do for obvious reasons. We have the MSA but we often do not choose to upgrade our c4d software until sometimes 6-months later. Sometimes longer. It all depends what we are in the middle of when the updates are released.

I know this is all conjecture in the case for c4d, but looking ahead, its on a lot of users minds.
 
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