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  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Venkman: Indeed it was a super cool reel. Anyone know what they were using? I'd life to see some behind the scenes stuff.


I believe he is using the mootzoid plugins in conjunction with softimage ice

https://vimeo.com/mootzoid

He implies it here about halfway down the comment thread
https://vimeo.com/54739307

Dont believe it was out of the box stuff.
And lets not downplay the artist's huge helpings of talent and skill.

Great stuff.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by JoelOtron: I believe he is using the mootzoid plugins in conjunction with softimage ice

https://vimeo.com/mootzoid

He implies it here about halfway down the comment thread
https://vimeo.com/54739307

Dont believe it was out of the box stuff.
And lets not downplay the artist's huge helpings of talent and skill.

Great stuff.


Mootzoid plugins are almost a default install on SI and the majority of which are ICE compounds built in SI and they're only $250 for the lot.

I don't think anyone has downplayed the talent of the artist, which is considerable, and certainly not my intention when linking to his work.

There are breakdown on Tim Borgmann's vimeo and website and if you want to see SI viewport speed check out Mootzoid's tutorials and how interactive everything stays when working with a lot of ICE nodes and particles.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Venkman: Indeed it was a super cool reel. Anyone know what they were using? I'd life to see some behind the scenes stuff.


Tim Borgman uses ICE mostly as far as I know and is an insanely talented artist that doesn't rely on software delivering ready made solutions but is relying on his artistic and technical skills mostly.
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  05 May 2013
AntimatterVFX, that reel is phenomenal. My concern with Softimage is that while I hear great things about it I also keep hearing how Autodesk have 'stopped development' or 'moved devs over to Maya'. It takes months, even years, to become proficient in a piece of software, its not a time investment I want to make lightly.

I find C4D's viewport performance baffling. I have a 55000 poly model which I can spin round at 40fps when working on it. As soon as I look at it through an animated camera it drops to 8fps. HN off, no deformers, no rig, no pose morph, just a static mesh.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by AntimatterVFX: Mootzoid plugins are almost a default install on SI and the majority of which are ICE compounds built in SI and they're only $250 for the lot.

I don't think anyone has downplayed the talent of the artist, which is considerable, and certainly not my intention when linking to his work.

There are breakdown on Tim Borgmann's vimeo and website and if you want to see SI viewport speed check out Mootzoid's tutorials and how interactive everything stays when working with a lot of ICE nodes and particles.


Consider again that it was 3rd party plugins (and also again, talent and ingenuity) that made this reel possible.

Xparticles 2 is released today, and though it does not claim to be em/mootzoid, its definitely a step in the right direction with more development and potential to come. Its multithreaded and is fast in the viewport. Price is comparable as well.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by JoelOtron: Consider again that it was 3rd party plugins (and also again, talent and ingenuity) that made this reel possible.


Consider this, Mootz is credited with doing the fluid sims and no one is overlooking the talent involved in this work.

Time to get off the patronising high horse.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by mism: AntimatterVFX, that reel is phenomenal. My concern with Softimage is that while I hear great things about it I also keep hearing how Autodesk have 'stopped development' or 'moved devs over to Maya'. It takes months, even years, to become proficient in a piece of software, its not a time investment I want to make lightly.

I find C4D's viewport performance baffling. I have a 55000 poly model which I can spin round at 40fps when working on it. As soon as I look at it through an animated camera it drops to 8fps. HN off, no deformers, no rig, no pose morph, just a static mesh.


Here's how we came to the decision, or how one of my partners decided for us.

If Autodesk stopped developing SI tomorrow how many years would it take for C4D to reach the same level? On current pace of development 5? That was our generous estimate in reality C4D may never get there.

ICE can be used to extend SI, in fact ICE created tools often run faster than built in tools because it's highly optimised and will make the most of what ever hardware you have. Many SI users are on older versions because of that, they don't feel the need to upgrade. 2014 was a massive bug splat looking at the release notes.

The SI developers involved in creating ICE are rumoured to be working on MayaFX a Maya version of ICE but the undertaking is massive according to those in the know. SI is under the care of the Singapore development team but Autodesk have always said SI will continue to be developed but...who knows.

We expect to get 5 years out of SI at least then who knows what the 3D landscape will look like.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Nanome: You know what, I'm deeply offended that you got offended by a phrase like that. Please don't offend me anymore by being so "delicate" about stereotypes. Stereotypes exist for a reason and in most cases are very accurate. Can they be unfair sometimes? Sure. That's why we have brains that can detect when something falls outside their rules. The only reason they are considered a "negative" thing by some is because of the tyranny with manners of political correctness. I'm offended by those who think stereotypes are bad and "racist", so please stop.


.


Stereotypes are cheap opinions for those too lazy or stupid to form their own.
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  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by littledevil: You did refer to gaming forums in your first posting which often
contain more posting of such disrespectful nature and implied with that Maxon has to deal with such tone.


Not quite.

The aggressive nature of posters on forums found in online games makes CGtalk a picnic. Rudeness and non-constructive criticism will always be an omnipresent force in any populated online forum but not to the extent that the onslaught mmo developers must face.

By way of comparison it's really NOT that bad over here. There are other companies who have it far worse. Would it be nice if everyone was polite and accommodating most of the time? Sure. But I would be far more concerned if taken to the extreme, forum membership comprised of only Leave-it-to-Beaver personalities.

My point? The expectation that all posters should be uniformly well mannered is unrealistic. Even ignoring those who are highly critical can do more harm than good. Communities are a give and take proposition; it takes all sorts to make the world turn. Even Maxon has probably had a couple of douchebags on their team over the years. Why expect their user base to be any different?

I say the good folks at Maxon should take heart and just roll with the punches.

Quote: If you want to express that there might be pattern, say something like 'companies
from Germany tend to do this and that', as this does not imply the stupid idea that there is some racial
obligation forcing that ethnic in that behaviour.


On the contrary, I wasn't suggesting that there was a racial component insofar as German craftsmanship is concerned - in fact, it's cultural.

Since the dark ages, German blacksmiths and metal workers were renown for their ability to produce high quality work. This reputation continues to not only thrive today but is actively reinforced by the German government.

This is reflected in the German educational system. In universities/colleges across Germany, students who pursue a trade skill will spend a partial amount of time in the classroom and the rest in a manufacturing company's shop floor. I believe they are even paid during their apprenticeship. Following graduation, the student can elect to continue in their current position with that company as a full time employee.

This arrangement is beneficial as skilled labourers are guaranteed a job at home and thus, are unlikely to leave the country to seek employment elsewhere. The result? The mythos, which began in the dark ages, is preserved and the economy as a whole remains robust.

In fact, if you browse through the brochures intended for international customers from BMW, Volkswagen, Leica and Zeiss, you’ll see a common theme throughout all of their marketing material, which stresses the quality of German manufacturing. The amount of treasure spent by the German taxpayer and German industry as a whole to propagate this “positive stereotype” is fairly sizable.

This is why I find it perplexing that you took offense to my earlier statements as it seemingly goes against the mandate your country has set.

In any case, highly disciplined, meticulous attention to detail and precision on the highest order are attributes commonly associated with German industrial workers. Not because of any racial predisposition, but because their cultural dynamic places a strong emphasis on remaining at the top of their game in the fields of engineering and science – a trend that began over 900 years ago.

Alright, with that said, Maxon’s behavior seems to be typical of that seen in many German companies which is to specialize in one or two specific areas.

It seems highly unlikely Maxon will break out of R15 with multiple game changers ranging from animation to the implementation of a parametric/history workflow. Maxon likes small and steady increments so we’ll probably get one new major feature coupled with a lot of tweaks, improvements and rewrites. Hopefully, the long overdue multi-threaded capabilities will be that one feature that gets through.

When you think about it, it does make sense from a strategic vantage point. Refining features and optimization code rather than churning out new features is something a lot of us want but rarely get from other companies. One of the improvements I do appreciate was the total rewrite of Cinema4D’s snapping system for instance. Meanwhile, behemoths like Autodesk are only too happy to showcase some new arbitrary feature that is suppose to revolutionize our industry while leaving problem areas in their software unresolved for years before they’re addressed (if at all).

Sadly, Luxology appears to be falling into that same trap. Modo has seen a tremendous increase in feature set since 302 but yet as new capabilities are tacked on, the program’s stability has suffered markedly.

Personally, I think Modo should have remained first and foremost a modeling application that every single us could have had at our disposal. A superb subdivision application married with a parametric/CAD precision workflow for under $700 would have been a great niche for Luxology to carve out.

Instead, they’re hell bent on creating the next evolution of Lightwave; along with all the baggage that entails (i.e. action centers). So we’ve now got animation, fur, particles, rigging; all of which are less comprehensive compared to other established solutions. Luxology has done this at the risk of neglecting what made Modo famous – it’s modeling toolset. Snapping is a good example. For years Modo users have cried out for a revision of the way snapping/falloff/action centers behave but have been met complete with silence while successive versions continue to churn out things the user base either never asked for or consider low priority.

The end result? We have a great modeling application that is becoming seemingly less relevant in light of the advances made by the competition while it’s animation/dynamics/hair are still subpar. Simply put, Modo is over-extending itself.

Perhaps the Luxology/Foundry merger will give birth to a revolutionary product of some kind but that’s a lot of eggs in one basket.

I think Maxon realizes the impact brought on by rapid feature creep and thus, they will continue to stay the course of slow but steady.
 
  05 May 2013
There is a certain bias in germany towards technical accomplishments and it is certainly partially cultural. However i think the strongest reason why germans seem to have a tendency to do well in this has nothing to do with race or anything, but a lot with a rather clever system of research institutes that work hand in hand with the industry to allow for long term development that other countries simply don't have implemented. The US and several other countries are currently in the process to set up similar systems, but it is working in germany for many decades now and gives us a bit of an advantage. You might read up on Frauenhofer Institute and Max-Planck-Gesellschaft regarding this.
Maxon always favoured a slow and steady approach and since i have been responsible for the QA at Maxon in the last decade i am very happy about this. I can understand though that many customers would prefer a faster pace in some areas.
So far sales numbers support us at Maxon in our believe that we are not making a fundamental error with the way we work. Individual customers can and will see this different of course, but the simple fact is that we can't make it right for nearly everyone, not now and not in the future, thats just a fact of life. This does not keep us from trying to do things as good as we can of course.
I won't comment much on the development of competing products, sufficent to say that personally i wasn't happy with AD dropping most of the SI team, but then, those guys kept at it and came up with the fabric engine, something that already proved it's metal and promises to be even more interesting in the future.
Please understand that every Maxon employee that participates here on CG-Talk does so on his or her own time and please don't expect us to seek confrontation with customers that have differing opinions on how things should be handled. If you as a customer feel that we are doing things wrong, please don't hold the people participating here responsible, but get in contact via the suggestions form, or our offices if you have serious problems.
Cheers
Björn
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The views expressed on this post are my personal opinions and do not represent the views of my employer.
 
  05 May 2013
Hi Bjorn, thanks for posting.
Are you allowed to comment on Maxon's priority of viewport performance? I know every user is different and you can't please everyone, but seems like nobody wouldn't want faster interaction with their software. What is the general feeling towards how C4D handles viewport performance over there at the company, is it at the top of the list, would it require a complete redoing of how things work under the hood?
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Lagavulin16: Hi Bjorn, thanks for posting.
Are you allowed to comment on Maxon's priority of viewport performance? I know every user is different and you can't please everyone, but seems like nobody wouldn't want faster interaction with their software. What is the general feeling towards how C4D handles viewport performance over there at the company, is it at the top of the list, would it require a complete redoing of how things work under the hood?

It's not realy the viewport that is the problem but the underlying object system. This makes it a very difficult problem to resolve since it effects literally every aspect of the application. Yes we are very much aware of the problem and we want to see it resolved. You can imagine though that something that has such a huge impact on the application on so many levels, will not be changed lightheartedly.
Cheers
Björn
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The views expressed on this post are my personal opinions and do not represent the views of my employer.
 
  05 May 2013
Thanks for the reply.
 
  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by Lagavulin16: Hi Bjorn, thanks for posting.
Are you allowed to comment on Maxon's priority of viewport performance? I know every user is different and you can't please everyone, but seems like nobody wouldn't want faster interaction with their software. What is the general feeling towards how C4D handles viewport performance over there at the company, is it at the top of the list, would it require a complete redoing of how things work under the hood?


The Viewport of CINEMA 4D generally is great. Just in context with many Objects it slows down because of the Object-System in C4D. Pure Polycount and OpenGL capacities of C4D beats other Packages. I can just recommend to Connect as much Objects as possible to make a scene faster and you will be happy.
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  05 May 2013
Originally Posted by HolgerBiebrach: The Viewport of CINEMA 4D generally is great. Just in context with many Objects it slows down because of the Object-System in C4D. Pure Polycount and OpenGL capacities of C4D beats other Packages. I can just recommend to Connect as much Objects as possible to make a scene faster and you will be happy.


I've heard that the problem is when you have lots of objects, but that hasn't been my experience at all. I'm not dealing with hundreds of objects, just create a grid array with some effectors and camera motion and some other objects and I'm not getting realtime playback anymore. I'm coming from 3ds Max, so maybe it's just me expecting too much. I don't know, but I find it pretty impossible to use - for animation anyway.
 
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