Why use C4D in a MAX / Maya world?

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  10 October 2015
Ok - cool thanks for sharing. Your pc is a lot more powerful than mine - so I'm not too happy to hear that you're getting such poor results.
 
  10 October 2015
Quote: Try to render so many polygons in C4D and your computer will burn.


Or maybe not...



40 million trees

Each little green dot is the Alder tree from the library, around 100K poly with leafs.

So that's... 4 Billion polygons.

C4D standard render with GI for good measure, on a lesser PC than yours.

Obviously, C4D isn't Clarisse, you can't have 4 billion polys in the viewport, but with render instances, even the standard render can do it, so does Vray for C4D.

You just have to know how to use your tools before passing judgement.

Last edited by EricM : 10 October 2015 at 02:50 PM.
 
  10 October 2015
Originally Posted by IMPICHMENT: The surface of 5x5 km.
One tree - 1 million polygons.
5 million instances of this tree.
3,805,590M- Polygons
Used 10.5 GB
Scene parsing - 1,29sec seconds.
Try to render so many polygons in C4D and your computer will burn.
http://maxkagirov.com/scr/1BTISCK.jpg


Lol... don't you ever get tired of being wrong?
-one 4.500.000 polygons tree
-scattered 1.000.000 instances with standard cloner on a 5*5km landscape
-4.500.000*1.000.000=4.500.000.000.000 polygons(actually more than yours)
-IMO 4.500billion polygons are enough for professional usage
-used barely 12GB RAM
-preparation time 1'05"(faster than your)
-total render time with default render 1'20"(faster than your)
-all of this with a 3 years old new macpro(older than your PC, Cinebench score similar)
-and no, my Mac did not burn... system fan was barely audible.
-learn to use your tools and stop trolling
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Last edited by sirio : 10 October 2015 at 02:35 PM.
 
  11 November 2015
I just made a Tutorial to show some Tricks for optimizing the Rig and Scene for Performance in C4D. With my tricks you get 18 FPS with four complex characters (adcanced biped Template) instead of 4 FPS.
Of course it would be nice if c4d would perform better with Subdivisions and Expressions but there is some stuff you can do to make the Scene work quite good. Hope this helps some of you.

https://youtu.be/75ZCqQLQqwM
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Last edited by HolgerBiebrach : 11 November 2015 at 11:48 AM.
 
  11 November 2015
Originally Posted by sirio: Lol... don't you ever get tired of being wrong?
-one 4.500.000 polygons tree
-scattered 1.000.000 instances


I explained that you need 5 million clones. The problem is the number of clones no sense how many polygons in the original tree.Preparing the scene is only one core, while 11 cores are not running.

Why is any question, resentment - is considered trolling?

Here's an example - in 3d max everything happens in real time without delays.
At the same time enabled an interactive rendering and no problems.
36:29 - 2.9 billion polygons and it is not the limit, I have seen render 17 billion polygons and more....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qR2ibKQ1-8
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But what a blender. http://blenderartists.org/forum/sho...-number-anymore
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What can I do to preparing scene used all cores ?

Here's my scene which use low poly tree, put in cloners 5 or 20 million copies and see what happens. https://www.dropbox.com/s/y46xe9wb5.../TEST3.c4d?dl=0

I would like to see a screenshot which shows the statistics polygons and instances.
If you have recorded a video, you have helped many. Such problems arise not only from me.

Last edited by IMPICHMENT : 11 November 2015 at 03:34 AM.
 
  11 November 2015
Quote: I explained that you need 5 million clones.


And what about the example above with 40 million trees then?

Quote: Why is any question, resentment - is considered trolling?


Maybe because nothing of what you said earlier could be considered like a question or a serious and constructive concern? Or because almost every single post you made in this forum sounds like "Maxon doesn't listen/C4D is crap". What kind of question is that?Check for yourself :

Quote: You will understand that this software is not suitable for the really serious work - VFX, architecture, etc. [...] Try to render so many polygons in C4D and your computer will burn.


A ton of people make their living with C4D with all kind of serious work, including Archviz and VFX, and none of them suffer "spontaneous combustion" of their hardware. We do just fine.

Instead of formulating valid criticisms about all the things that could be improved in C4D (and yes, we ALL want the Object Manager and expressions to be faster/multithreaded), you keep passing judgements without checking your facts and being proven wrong time and time again.

Look at all the posts about Team Render Server, Bodypaint, Material system, Character animation rigs performances... and you'll see plenty of criticisms that are NOT considered trolling.
 
  11 November 2015
The problem aren`t those specific applications, lack of features or performance.
But a growing level of incompetence and ignorance in the community often paired with a dissatitisfaction of really learning the application.
Then those urban legends start to surface that this or that is buggy and slow, complicated or whatsoever.

For example i recently saw a modeling tutorial where this 'tutor' claimed that 3dsmax poly-loop selection is buggy. Yes, my dear friend you have to select a SECOND poly to guide the direction of the loop!

Well,these are the things that really make me mad.

User incompetence in any application.....get over it.
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  11 November 2015
Lord before accusing someone of incompetence try to solve the problem. The problem of preparation of the scene on a single core emerges at almost every forum.
Instead, the proposals to address the problem, some are beginning to blame the incompetence and troling.
I did not come to your house to steal the last piece of bread.
If you think you are gods C4D, and other incompetent - that show the video where several billions of instances rendered in realtime.
On youtube there are dozens of lessons where it is done in 3D Max, but there is no where to do it in C4D.
I can guess why?
Anyway, I received no answer.

P.S
I have more than 8 years of use C4D, I love this software so much more 3D max. But I have to be constantly on the computer 3d max to solve more complex problems. Every year there is a new release of Max, which can not open the files in my 2014 version. Buy and know two programs are too expensive and difficult.
There are few negatives in relation to C4D.
In any case, I write here no longer makes sense, adios.
 
  11 November 2015
Personally I use C4d for Motion Graphics things and Maya for anything else. It's what I like to do and i'm comfortable using both. Thankfully where I work they let me use both.
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  11 November 2015
Originally Posted by Horganovski: I remember in fact making a note of this when rigging in C4D after a break from it for a while as I wanted to remember that it's not intuitive to what I expect, so I took a screen cap of the setting with a note 'remember that this needs to be enabled for correctives to work'.
So in my opinion the fact that I had to do that instead of just assuming I could use an option that seems logical and represents the actual calculation order is actually a failure to be clear.


This is a very silly discussion, again. First of I'm late at the party sorry for that but...

There are no corrective morphs in Cinema. There have never been corrective morphs in Cinema ...and since you all think there are corrective morphs in Cinema there probably will never be corrective morphs in Cinema. It's hard I know, but luckilly you all have very bad memory so by tomorrow you have all have forgotten about this post ...and next year this time you will have this same discussion again about 'before and after'. Just like last year and the year before that year and before that one when thewre were also no corrective morphs.

it's called the cycle of life. If you want to break the cycle you could go to Maxon's website and fill in some form and ask for corrective morphs. Don't forget to explain what they are as they probably don't know ...bad memory you know ...oh no you don't, sorry.
 
  11 November 2015
Howdy,
Originally Posted by bunk: ...There are no corrective morphs in Cinema. There have never been corrective morphs in Cinema ...and since you all think there are corrective morphs in Cinema there probably will never be corrective morphs in Cinema...

Oh, sorry. Maybe we are using the term "corrective morphs" incorrectly to describe what we are doing. Please enlighten us so that we may use the correct teminology.

Adios,
Cactus Dan
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  11 November 2015
Originally Posted by Cactus Dan: Howdy,
Oh, sorry. Maybe we are using the term "corrective morphs" incorrectly to describe what we are doing. Please enlighten us so that we may use the correct teminology.
Hey Dan, nothing wrong with the terminology. It's just not there. It doesn't excist in Cinema except within two plugins. One of yours and one of Keith ...but not in Cinema. I wish it was there. In fact I asked (maybe loud mouthed is a better terminology) for years for it ...but we never got it. So it saddens me it's discussed as if it exists within Cinema. Why devellope something when the users and even betatesters think it's already there ...and who knows maybe even Maxon by now believes it's already there since it's being discussed on the fora as if it were there and isn't there something by that name in the Posemorph tag. So yeah sure Cinema has corrective morphs.

Truth is ...it hasn't and never had and Maxon never claimed it had.

cheers.
 
  11 November 2015
Yeah it's weird, I remember that thread here about Correctional morphs a while back and looking at the examples Bunk posted they weren't working correctly (no pun intended..).

But.. I've set up rigs for clients here with correctionals for things like preserving volume in knees, knuckles and elbows. And they do work.. I've just opened one here in R16 and it's still working. So I assumed maybe Bunk was using an older version of C4D and the bug had been fixed since. It can't be that recent though because the person who developed the character tools as we currently know them left after R14 if I recall correctly, or R15 at the latest.

A couple of things I do that maybe help avoid the bugs - I always create them with the joints at exactly a 90 degree bend, and I usually leave the target shapes in the rig file (I use my +1, -1 method I mentioned in that old thread to create the targets).
So, looking at a working example here I can see I hooked up to the morph tag using the Absolute option on creation, but I didn't enable the Post Deformers option (you can't when using Absolute targets). So the morph tag is still using linked target shapes in the file, maybe that's what prevents them from breaking?
Very strange.. but it does seem to work in this case.. I'm inclined to think that Bunk is right as they certainly don't seem to be predictable but in some specific cases they do seem to work ok.

I do think you could clarify more Bunk - when you say Corrective morphs are you talking about being able to sculpt on a mesh in a posed state and then have that fix the skinning ? Because if so then Maya doesn't have that either, you have to sculpt on a copy and then negate the effect of the pose like I mentioned. In that case the only 'real' corrective morph system I've used like that is Dans CD Morph plugin, but that doesn't mean I can't fix volume preservation issues in C4D with the native one or in Maya, which I would also term 'corrective morphs' since they are fixing loss of volume issues. I work a lot more in Maya though these days so maybe I've just been lucky and managed to miss the bugs in C4D recently.

Maybe someone like Brett can chime in and let us know what his experience with correctives is in C4D, could do with some more opinions.

Last edited by Horganovski : 11 November 2015 at 01:46 AM.
 
  11 November 2015
Howdy,
Originally Posted by bunk: ...Hey Dan, nothing wrong with the terminology. It's just not there. It doesn't excist in Cinema except within two plugins. One of yours and one of Keith ...but not in Cinema.

Oh, I see. I never know if I'm using the correct terminology or not. I just code how I need something to work but never really know exactly what to call it (since I'm just a self taught, seat of the pants programmer). Anyway, I'm glad that the terminology is correct, since I was claiming my plugins have that capability. I'd hate to find out I was making a false claim.

But if I may ask, why would it be important for Cinema 4D to natively offer that or any other capability if it's available with third party plugins? If Cinema 4D has every possible feature built into it, what would be the incentive for third party developers to make plugins for Cinema 4D? What would be the justification of Cinema 4D to even have a plugin SDK?

Adios,
Cactus Dan
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  11 November 2015
Originally Posted by Horganovski: But.. I've set up rigs for clients here with correctionals for things like preserving volume in knees, knuckles and elbows. And they do work..
No, they don't. It might look like they do, but they don't.
Quote: I do think you could clarify more Bunk
I'm not going to provide examples anymore, you can make them yourself. Two joints, cylinder. Cylinder is your basic leg. At frame zero the leg is straight at frame 20 the leg is bend 90 degrees. Weight the middle polygon loop for 50 procent to the top joint and 50 procent to the bottom joint. When the 'leg' is 90 degrees bend, the middle polygon loop is 45 degrees rotated. Now imagine that the front polygon in that row is the knee cap. Move it in the direction of it's normal and make it your correctional morph target.
When you animate this the kneecap moves away from the kneejoint.
Looks fine at zero rotation, looks fine at 90 degrees rotation. Looks like crap when observed inbetween. Stil not convinced? Rotate the whole setup in some weird angle and play the animation again. If it's still hard to see attach a camera to the top joint and use it to admire the space trip of the 'knee cap'.
cheers
 
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