Symmetry *without* the symmetry object?

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  01 January 2018
Symmetry *without* the symmetry object?

Hello there,

I created a model with the symmetry object, but then had to remove the symmetry in order to rig it. Now I want to work on the model, but I want to adjust it symmetrically without the symmetry object. Does anyone know a way to do this with using only the center of the world, or more specifically the ZY plane, as the center of symmetry?

For example, I want to select a point on the left side and have it move the corresponding point in the same way on the right side.

Thanks!
 
  01 January 2018
you need two plugins for that:

1. true symmetry (free)
this works differently to the built in symmetry object, you don't need to cut your object in half and you can also work on either side of your model. however, this will mess with your point order, and your weighting and uvs will get messed up. because of that you'll also need the second plugin:

2. morph mill (i think around 30$)
this plugin will let you restore the point order, so your uvs and weighting will work again after utilizing the symmetry plugin. just make a copy of your mesh before applying the true symmetry plugin, then you can transfer the point order from your original mesh to the modified mesh again.
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  01 January 2018
I think I can write something that will move the mirrored point in real time. But to be honest I've never really needed it.
When I make rigged characters. I have two .c4d files:
-One file with the mesh and a symmetry tag that I use to edit the mesh
-One file with the rigged character
I make changes to mesh version as desired. Then merge it into the file that has the rigged version. And replace it with the changed one.
Using the vamp tool to transfer the joint weights to the new mesh.

There's another thing that you should clarify when asking for anything symmetry related.
From a coding POV. Doing Symmetry is done mainly in two different ways:
1- Press a button to sym the points of the mesh
2- Live symming that works in real time like the Symmetry tag

#1 is much easier to code.
So if you can get by with that workflow. There's probably a ton of people that can write one for you.
I personally think using vamp tool is good enough. And not worth the time and effort of coding anything from scratch.
But everyone has their own preferred workflow.

-ScottA
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  01 January 2018
I hope Maxon will see that they are behind in a large way regarding this, You shouldnt have to add tags for such a native feature found in all modelling 3d apps. It should be live, should have options as found in MODO going back years ago.Modo works on the basis of world space, selection sets, all Axis, Topology and has resymetrize feature.

The symmetry should also allow for modeling allowing taking away or adding loops and have the Uvs update them self. For now id like to have a plugin that fixes symmetry without messing up point order. Morphmill for point order restoration works very well.

Dan
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  01 January 2018
You can also use all the sculpting brushes to work on common polygon objects without any 'Sculpt Tag' .
These brushes have an option to work symmetrical.
Ii use that a lot for 'reshaping' a given mesh (e.g. symmetric pose morphs)

Peter
 
  01 January 2018
Hello and thank you for your comments and replies.

Everfresh: Regarding the two plugins you mentioned, thank you, I didn't know about them. I will have to look into those and learn more about them.

Scott Ayers: Thank you. I will look into the VAMP tool. It's been a really long time since I've used the VAMP tool and sort of forgot about it. I need to find a tutorial to refresh my memory. Can you suggest any? About your second comment, either a button would be nice, in other words, move the point(s) to their new positions and hit a button to mirror them to the other side, or have it live. Either way would be great, but if #1 is much easier to code, that would be excellent. Please feel free to code something if you should so desire! That would be AWESOME!

Rectro: I don't really require symmetry beyond the Symmetry Object for the heavy modeling process (adding loops, extruding and making cuts (at least that is not what I need it for), but it would be nice if there was such as solution. My request would be to have it available during the Pose Morph stage.

nophoto: Thank you for your suggestion to use the sculpting brushes. That is a good idea!
 
  01 January 2018
Originally Posted by JoeHerman:
Rectro: I don't really require symmetry beyond the Symmetry Object for the heavy modeling process (adding loops, extruding and making cuts (at least that is not what I need it for), but it would be nice if there was such as solution. My request would be to have it available during the Pose Morph stage.


Hi. Just to make it clear if you did mean to have symmetry with adding loops , extruding e.c.t, this is not something you would want at the pose morph stage as that would change the point order. Not only is there symmetry for sculpting already, but you can make a pose morph, duplicate it and flip it for a symmetrical pose morph providing your model is 100% symmetrical.

Dan
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  01 January 2018
Originally Posted by Rectro: Hi. Just to make it clear if you did mean to have symmetry with adding loops , extruding e.c.t, this is not something you would want at the pose morph stage as that would change the point order. Not only is there symmetry for sculpting already, but you can make a pose morph, duplicate it and flip it for a symmetrical pose morph providing your model is 100% symmetrical.
Hi Dan, No, didn't mean that I wanted to add loops, extruding, etc during the pose morph stage. Was actually saying that there was no need for it there. I think your point was that there should be some way to have symmetry in modeling mode without the symmetry object.

Will definitely look into flipping poses as part of doing what I need.
 
  01 January 2018
I don't know of any vamp tutorials. It's fairly straight forward to use for transferring the weights though.
FYI. There's no need to do any point re-ordering stuff on a mesh that is already symmetrical.
If you just want to edit a mesh with symmetrical points. You can use * -1 on the point positions to keep them mirrored. And the point orders will stay the same.

Here's a simple tag plugin that will do that. With some very, very basic code in it.
NOTE: It's very quick and dirty. And it's not meant to be used in production. It's for learning purposes only.
Plugin: Live Point Symmetry Tag Plugin


-ScottA
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Last edited by Scott Ayers : 01 January 2018 at 09:48 PM.
 
  01 January 2018
Originally Posted by Scott Ayers: Here's a simple tag plugin that will do that. With some very, very basic code in it.
NOTE: It's very quick and dirty. And it's not meant to be used in production. It's for learning purposes only.
Plugin: Live Point Symmetry Tag Plugin
Hi Scott,

Sorry, I didn't see this yesterday. Thanks a million! I am going to download this now and check it out. I'll let you know if I have questions.

Cheers!

Joe.
 
  01 January 2018
Hi Scott,

Just tried your plugin (on frame zero). It works!

First I tried to use it on a cube on frame zero (as you say). I made a cube with 2 subdivisions on each side, made it editable and pulled out a point on one side and voila, the corresponding point moved on the other side. Then I added a pose morph and tried it and that also worked.

Next I selected two (or more points) on one side and pulled them out, but unfortunately that didn't work. I would love it if it would work on multiple points. Any chance on making that happen?

Also, I would love to learn more about coding Python plugins. I studied C# programming some time back (as well as other languages) and am familiar with the concepts surrounding objects. Is there a way to peek into your code. I'd love to learn more about how it's done.

Thank you very much!
 
  01 January 2018
Glad to help. Making a plugin like this with no options and very little error checking takes me only a few minutes to make. So it's no big deal.
But when you want more options that eats up a lot of time. And I don't have the time to do that.
Maybe you or somebody else with more time will take the idea and run with it.

Cactus Dan sold a symmetry plugin that was good. But he passed away and it's no loner available.
Rumor has it that his plugin were bought. So it might eventually be available again by someone else some day.

In the mean time. If you can't find a plugin for this that you like. My workflow using vamp should be good enough to get things done.

-ScottA
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  01 January 2018
Originally Posted by Scott Ayers: I don't know of any vamp tutorials. It's fairly straight forward to use for transferring the weights though.
FYI. There's no need to do any point re-ordering stuff on a mesh that is already symmetrical.
If you just want to edit a mesh with symmetrical points. You can use * -1 on the point positions to keep them mirrored. And the point orders will stay the same.

Here's a simple tag plugin that will do that. With some very, very basic code in it.
NOTE: It's very quick and dirty. And it's not meant to be used in production. It's for learning purposes only.
Plugin: Live Point Symmetry Tag Plugin


-ScottA
Nice one Scott, thanks for that, thats very useful. How much work would it take to make a re-symmetrize plugin?

Thanks, Dan
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  01 January 2018
^It depends on how you want it to work.

If you have a mesh that has points that are relatively close on the other side that you want to re-sym. Then the same kind of code can be used with a range option fairly easy.
But if you have points that are way different from the other side. Which most often the case. Then that's a lot more difficult and a lot more work.
That's typically when things like re-building the mesh and point orders getting changed happens.

There is a free plug-in worth trying out here: http://www.studio-fabian.de/downloads/
It's in the coffee plugins section.
It's very old and it's a little bit clumsy to use (the dialog needs to be open). But it's free and does a fairly decent job.

-ScottA
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Last edited by Scott Ayers : 01 January 2018 at 11:04 PM.
 
  01 January 2018
Hi Scott,

Thank you for pointing out the Studio-Fabian plugin. That looks interesting too, although it is COFFEE based. (Hardly ever hear of COFFEE stuff, but I guess it lingers on in places). I will look into that.

Been a bit distracted the past couple of days, but just to follow up, if I wanted to try to modify your code to deal with multiple point selection (as well as trying to learn Python), is there a way to do that? Sorry about my lack of knowledge of things Python. I will understand if you would rather keep your code private for whatever reasons (need not explain).

Thanks again and Cheers,

Joe.
 
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