The Dollar Value of R20

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  1 Week Ago
The Dollar Value of R20

Iíve done these accounting assessments a few times in the past. Srek didnít like me doing it, but Iíll risk offending my friends from Maxon. :-) †This is just my opinion.

What US Dollar Value would I give to the R20 Upgrade? To rephrase the question...if c4dís R20 feature enhancements were sold A la Carte.... as separate modules or third party plug-ins...what would the total value be?

Here is my preliminary accounting based on review videos:

Volumes delivers incredible power and a ridiculously useful new modeling paradigm. This one is pretty easy to price as there is a clear comparison with MeshFusion which came out a few years ago for Modo. MeshFusion was sold separately for $400 before theFoundry purchased it and folded it into the product. Since I purchased it and used it I believe I can say confidently that modeling w/R20ís Volumes will be better. And volumes works with more than just geometryóalso working with particles, etc. Plus it supports fields in crazy cool operations and there are filters to dilate/erode etc. It is no exaggeration to say that this feature could save an artist 20, 50, perhaps 200 hours over the course of a year. Some of the most daunting modeling challenges will become childís play. Plus whole new artistic styles are possible with it that simply werenít before.
Ala Carte Price: $500

Material Node System. If someone like GSG shipped a third party product with the depth and elegance of the new node system Iíve got to think they would sell it for $149-$199. †Including Uber-materials and pre-built modules.
Ala Carte Price $140

Fields/MoGraph 2.0. Iím gaining a bit better understanding as I watch more videos. This is an ENORMOUS expansion in capability and ease of use. This will improve virtually every MoGraph setup. And fields arenít limited to Mograph.
Ala Carte Price: $300 (and my hunch is that Iím under-estimating the value here)

Fields for Vertex Maps
This one deserves a discrete accounting. If a plugin vendor sold this I expect this type price
$35

CAD file import/handing
Iím not as educated about this as others but from what I gather plugins or apps to handle this kind of thing can be pricey...more than Iím posting here.
$450 †(updated based on feedback, previously $150)

New Gradient Editor
$15

Multi-Instances
$30

Misc. UI and file format enhancements
$25

1 yr of Cineversity plugins, presets and tutorials included with MSA
$125 (assuming the plugins/presets are mostly updated for R20)* Truthfully the toolset and tuts these guys do is worth more.

When r20 was first announced I was disappointed because there were fewer features than expected and no BodyPaint upgrade or ViewPort speedup. I was a bit disillusioned and I said as much. However after reviewing the videos with care and doing an accounting...this update comes in with the highest value since Iíve been doing these†(Past 4-5 years). It comes in at almost TWICE the value as one recent release.†

It took me awhile to understand what these new features were and their use. Iím way past dissilusioned now. Iím delighted and looking forward to installing.

(Updated after feedback on CAD tools)
Total Value: $1,620
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Last edited by IceCaveMan : 1 Week Ago at 11:51 PM.
 
  1 Week Ago
Originally Posted by IceCaveMan: Iíve done these accounting assessments a few times in the past. Srek didnít like me doing it, but Iíll risk offending my friends from Maxon. :-) †This is just my opinion.

What US Dollar Value would I give to the R20 Upgrade? To rephrase the question...if c4dís R20 feature enhancements were sold A la Mode.... as separate modules or third party plug-ins...what would the total value be?

Here is my preliminary accounting based on review videos:
Volumes delivers incredible power and a ridiculously useful new modeling paradigm. This one is pretty easy to price as there is a clear comparison with MeshFusion which came out a few years ago for Modo. MeshFusion was sold separately for $400 before theFoundry purchased it and folded it into the product. Since I purchased it and used it I believe I can say confidently that modeling w/R20ís Volumes will be better. And volumes works with more than just geometryóalso working with particles, etc. Plus it supports fields in crazy cool operations and there are filters to dilate/erode etc. It is no exaggeration to say that this feature could save an artist 20, 50, perhaps 200 hours over the course of a year. Some of the most daunting modeling challenges will become childís play. Plus whole new artistic styles are possible with it that simply werenít before.
Ala Carte Price: $500

Material Node System. If someone like GSG shipped a third party product with the depth and elegance of the new node system Iíve got to think they would sell it for $149-$199. †Including Uber-materials and pre-built modules.
Ala Carte Price $140

Fields/MoGraph 2.0. Iím gaining a bit better understanding as I watch more videos. This is an ENORMOUS expansion in capability and ease of use. This will improve virtually every MoGraph setup. And fields arenít limited to Mograph.
Ala Carte Price: $300 (and my hunch is that Iím under-estimating the value here)

Fields for Vertex Maps
This one deserves a discrete accounting. If a plugin vendor sold this I expect this type price
$35

CAD file import/handing
Iím not as educated about this as others but from what I gather plugins or apps to handle this kind of thing can be pricey...more than Iím posting here.
$150

New Gradient Editor
$15

Multi-Instances
$30

Misc. UI and file format enhancements
$25

1 yr of Cineversity plugins, presets and tutorials included with MSA
$125 (assuming the plugins/presets are mostly updated for R20)* Truthfully the toolset and tuts these guys do is worth more.

When r20 was first announced I was disappointed because there were fewer features than expected and no BodyPaint upgrade or ViewPort speedup. I was a bit disillusioned and I said as much. However after reviewing the videos with care and doing an accounting...this update comes in with the highest value since Iíve been doing these†(Past 4-5 years). It comes in at almost TWICE the value as one recent release.†

It took me awhile to understand what these new features were and their use. Iím way past dissilusioned now.

Total Value: $1,320
I like this but would add to the last one: if one has Prime (as I do) Cineversity is basically useless as most tutorials use tools not available in Prime and very few, if any,† actually say what version you need. so that value to Prime users is $0.00 and most of the rest are also $0.00 but then Prime is 1/3 cost of studio
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  1 Week Ago
Originally Posted by unclebob: I like this but would add to the last one: if one has Prime (as I do) Cineversity is basically useless as most tutorials use tools not available in Prime and very few, if any,† actually say what version you need. so that value to Prime users is $0.00 and most of the rest are also $0.00 but then Prime is 1/3 cost of studio
I havenít studied the features in the Prime upgrade so I wonít comment.
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  1 Week Ago
For Prime it would still be:

Material Node System.† $140

Basic Fields. $50

Fields for Vertex Maps.†$35

New Gradient Editor.†$15

Misc. UI and file format enhancements.†$25

So if you sum this up you are still above 250$, which is the MSA price in the US. I excluded cineversity, since I haven't used it that much, but sure, still some bucks on top. For Prime it boils down to the Node-editor. If you don't need it (because you like the old system or you have an external render engine), then this update ist a bit dull. Otherwise it is a nice package for Prime as well.
Which doesn't mean I am not a bit disappointed: I want them volumes!†
 
  1 Week Ago
<sarcasm>Lets take this one step further, just have every feature be an add-on. †Each mograph effector, primitive, shader, modeling tool, camera view, xpresso node, etc, this could be amazing..</sarcasm>
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  1 Week Ago
Originally Posted by christianS: For Prime it would still be:
[...]
For Prime it boils down to the Node-editor. If you don't need it (because you like the old system or you have an external render engine), then this update ist a bit dull. Otherwise it is a nice package for Prime as well.
Which doesn't mean I am not a bit disappointed: I want them volumes!†
Prime would have been a really nice proposition if the new volume modeling had been added for modellers. As it stands, I just can't see the reason anymore why Prime exists. ProRender isn't even part of Prime, which is also an odd omission.

I feel Maxon would do well to simplify their product line-up: get rid of Prime, combine Visualize and Broadcast in one product, and integrate BodyPaint (sculpting!) in all versions. It's too confusing now. Simplify, simplify.
 
  1 Week Ago
Originally Posted by hvanderwegen: Prime would have been a really nice proposition if the new volume modeling had been added for modellers. As it stands, I just can't see the reason anymore why Prime exists. ProRender isn't even part of Prime, which is also an odd omission.

I feel Maxon would do well to simplify their product line-up: get rid of Prime, combine Visualize and Broadcast in one product, and integrate BodyPaint (sculpting!) in all versions. It's too confusing now. Simplify, simplify.
I do not really agree. If Prime was droped I would have to drop MSA, because there is no way I can spend more money on that software, given the low amount of 3d work I do nowadays.†Prime is still a package that allows you to do much stuff. ProRender is not really needed as I can create pretty good images using the standard renderer (aka advanced renderer). Otherwise you could also say that Physical Renderer should be part of Prime (which I miss a bit more than ProRenderer). Is the standard renderer state of the art? No. But do I need that for low profile or even private stuff? No.
But I agree that It gets more complicated from year to year, especially with 3 in-house rendering options spread across the packages. I hope, that at one point physical renderer replaces the standard renderer, as they did with advanced renderer some versions ago.
As for volume modelling: yes, thath would have been sweet. But this version brings 3 big features, you can't put everything into prime. And I think the node based materials is the one that you just expect nowadays, so it has to be in Prime.†
 
  1 Week Ago
the thing is there are a lot of invisible features... if they rework the core... the enduser wont see anything for years but have to pay for it...
we dont pay for features... we pay for R&D and the development overall... thats how i see that... one year is to short to mesaure the progress of a DCC ap...
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  1 Week Ago
Totally agreed. But it is not just under-the-hood-work, each update brings features and usability improvements. And regarding that, R20 seams to be pretty good too.
 
  1 Week Ago
I don't know about you guys, but the feature to remove points when deleting a poly is a bigger deal to me than I originally thought.

I'm glad to see that included! †
 
  1 Week Ago
Originally Posted by BubblegumDimension: I don't know about you guys, but the feature to remove points when deleting a poly is a bigger deal to me than I originally thought.

I'm glad to see that included! †
That and the ability to suppress the dialog when you import images in textures that goes, "THIS ASSET ISN'T IN THE FOLDER, DO YOU WANT TO COPY IT" are going to be big timesavers!

Also, the more I see about fields, I think I agree with IceCaveMan that he may have undervalued them. The ability to have them grow, spring, delay...holy crap! And they work on vertex maps, mograph effectors, selection tags, deformer fallofs, and more is just craziness. It feels like MoGraph 2.0 levels of power just got added.
 
  1 Week Ago
Originally Posted by oglu: the thing is there are a lot of invisible features... if they rework the core... the enduser wont see anything for years but have to pay for it...
we dont pay for features... we pay for R&D and the development overall... thats how i see that... one year is to short to mesaure the progress of a DCC ap...

I donít disagree. I just like to do this each year as I assess my ongoing commitment to the platform. I totally understand that itís a complex ecosystem and sometimes improvements are more transparent. Some years have more obvious ďgoodiesĒ than others years.
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Last edited by IceCaveMan : 1 Week Ago at 09:46 PM.
 
  1 Week Ago
Originally Posted by TheGreatSzalam: That and the ability to suppress the dialog when you import images in textures that goes, "THIS ASSET ISN'T IN THE FOLDER, DO YOU WANT TO COPY IT" are going to be big timesavers!

Also, the more I see about fields, I think I agree with IceCaveMan that he may have undervalued them. The ability to have them grow, spring, delay...holy crap! And they work on vertex maps, mograph effectors, selection tags, deformer fallofs, and more is just craziness. It feels like MoGraph 2.0 levels of power just got added.
Yes, fields are going to change the whole landscape! †

Fields + deformers is in itself be a huge deal.
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C4D R19 Studio, MODO 902, VRAY, Octane, Cycles. PC/Mac.
 
  1 Week Ago
If CAD import is good† i suspect many places will get the Visualize if Maxon promotes it well.† it is an area where someone with a good product can make a big catch.
 
  1 Week Ago
Originally Posted by Bullit: If CAD import is good† i suspect many places will get the Visualize if Maxon promotes it well.† it is an area where someone with a good product can make a big catch.
Any idea on an approximate dollar value for those import/handling features? I was making a crude estimate.
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C4D R19 Studio, MODO 902, VRAY, Octane, Cycles. PC/Mac.
 
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