GRETCHEN (nudity)

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Old 07 July 2009   #31
Nice underwear. I especially like the little ribbon. Definitely better than what I did on my anatomy study model.

The model is already very good. Most areas like the torso is almost spot on.

I still think the knees, & lower portion of the legs is still abit off. What seemingly simple shape is actually quite complex if you wanted to get it to look convincing. Its one area I spend alot of time in my current project as well as the anatomy study model (see signature), & yet I can't say I got it totaly spot on.

Its hard to describle, but the knee looks a bit unnatuaral, & pop out like an flat extrution. Maybe you can soften the bottom side. See my piantover (if ou don't mind). Its almost there, just a little tweak here & there.

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Old 07 July 2009   #32
Thanks a lot PKD, I'm glad you like that ribbon.
I appreciate your paintover very much, thanks for taking time. I agree with most of your suggestions at first glance. To be honest I'm not satisfied with the shin structure yet, but I didn't want to bore with more shin updates. Corrections will follow.
 
Old 08 August 2009   #33
Hi Zoltan,

this is a very impressive model you've got there. I definitely want to see you finish this and do an awesome render.

I've noticed that you have a number of triangles on your mesh, which doesn't seem to be a problem in terms of smoothing. However, if you want to reduce geometry detail in areas where it's not needed, there's a nice technique that's described by Tareq Mirza on his anatomy modeling dvd:
basically you spin edges (if your 3d app doesn't have that function, there's probably a free script for it) such that you optimize the edge flow and minimize geometry detail at the same time.

Look at my lame drawing which explains the concept:


It's a great way to change the geometry flow if necessary, maybe you'll find a use for it.
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Old 08 August 2009   #34
Thank you very much Chris for dropping in! The project will be definitely finished, it's just a question of time...

About the wire: the model is built for the requirements of Wavefront objects without consideration for changes of the resolution. So triangles arenít really a problem - they are the better solution here to get smooth surfaces IMO, than trying to avoid them. I think it's more important to keep the polygons bent only in one axis with this moderate resolution. Reducing geometry detail isnít much a topic yet - many areas need still higher resolution.

However, thanks for the very useful tips - i wonít forget them when optimizing. And special thanks for mentioning Tareq Mirzaís DVD about anatomy modeling, which i will try to get and study.

Best regards

Last edited by zokana : 08 August 2009 at 04:43 PM.
 
Old 08 August 2009   #35
At least a little update. While working currently on a complex picture for my portfolio, Gretchen has been somewhat neglected. The other piece should be soon finished, giving me more time to concentrate on this character. Nonetheless a little work was done on the torso. I had (and still have) some difficulties with the subtle shapes - sometimes they look okay with a certain lighting, but being terrible with an other set-up... Escpecially the area between belly button and ribs isn't satisfying yet:

 
Old 08 August 2009   #36
zokana: This character is just beautiful, some great rendering and shading.

Something I dont understand though is why your new mesh is so dense? Can I recommend a lower resolution base cage and use a sculpting app to do the high polygon detail work for you?

Also you have allot of tri's in your mesh.

It's great to see the progress of your character though. Keep it up
 
Old 08 August 2009   #37
Originally Posted by INFINITE: zokana: This character is just beautiful, some great rendering and shading.

Something I dont understand though is why your new mesh is so dense? Can I recommend a lower resolution base cage and use a sculpting app to do the high polygon detail work for you?

Also you have allot of tri's in your mesh.

It's great to see the progress of your character though. Keep it up


Maybe Zokana just want to be more old school. Beside, it required more skill to hand model (push & pull) & properly lay out meshes.

In fact, I feel, these days, alot of beginners just went too fast into sculpting without properly construct their base meshes & didn't put sufficient effort to learn mesh topology.


Back to Zokana work,

I think the anatomy is very well done. Incredible details on the meshes as well. The only critics I have is maybe the lower body (from the belly button down) is abit long, but I could be wrong.
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Old 08 August 2009   #38
Originally Posted by PKD: Maybe Zokana just want to be more old school. Beside, it required more skill to hand model (push & pull) & properly lay out meshes.

In fact, I feel, these days, alot of beginners just went too fast into sculpting without properly construct their base meshes & didn't put sufficient effort to learn mesh topology.


I'm sorry PKD but I disagree entirely.

It's pretty bad practice for organic Character models to be of a high polygon count. It just isn't necessary. It's also very prohibitive when it comes to rigging and skinning the character let alone when it comes down to sculpting and adding proper details.

Perhaps it's ok for statues.

It can take just as much time to properly create a solid low polygon cage with good topology flow. Saying this is just what beginners do is wrong.

With a high poly mesh like that it could end up being very hard to control when it comes down to animation and posing, you will get creases and nasty folds.

Of course there is no doubt about the over all anatomy and shape. Stunning work. Especialy some of the renders on the first page of this WIP.
 
Old 08 August 2009   #39
Originally Posted by INFINITE: zokana: This character is just beautiful, some great rendering and shading.

Something I dont understand though is why your new mesh is so dense? Can I recommend a lower resolution base cage and use a sculpting app to do the high polygon detail work for you?

Also you have allot of tri's in your mesh.

It's great to see the progress of your character though. Keep it up

What a nice surprise to see your comment here! I love your work - your female characters are absolutely top level, top of the top i would say.
I agree very much with your critique about the "archaic" way i'm building this model. (I've seen this discussion coming when starting the thread - and it's perhaps time to explain my reasons for the ugly mesh)

But first of all i need to say, the character will be used in Poser. The main reason for the Poser export is some experience with scripting in Poser files, allowing me to create some hidden auto-remoted features, enhancing the movement quality. Several alternative shapes of the model will be included in the final library file, which will be automatically targeted by the bending parameters when animating. The method proved to be very effective already with previous characters i made. (The picture i'm working on currently is featuring my very first model using this method. A preview, showing a little part of the render, blur, bumps and background not in final quality yet: HERE, showing for example elbow auto-deformers in action)

Gretchen has to be built to match the requirements of Wavefront objects and to get best smoothing quality in Poser. Meaning: the resolution is fix, it wont be increased, so i donít need to care about avoiding tri's. Triangles give me the best smoothing results when reducing poly-rows - much better than using "new school" connecting methods with quadrangles (mostly double bent = bent diagonal - worst case when smoothing of Wavefront objects). And the final object file won't be over 1.5MB, so together with her auto-functions Gretchen will be quite simple to animate.

On the other hand i must confess, i never used ZBrush and I wished i'd have it. Is there any possibility to export from ZBrush into Wavefront format, and won't I get a horrifyingly high resolution?

BTW Lee: did you do more experiments with ringflash lighting? Would be great to see the results!
 
Old 08 August 2009   #40
Originally Posted by PKD: Maybe Zokana just want to be more old school. Beside, it required more skill to hand model (push & pull) & properly lay out meshes.

In fact, I feel, these days, alot of beginners just went too fast into sculpting without properly construct their base meshes & didn't put sufficient effort to learn mesh topology.


Back to Zokana work,

I think the anatomy is very well done. Incredible details on the meshes as well. The only critics I have is maybe the lower body (from the belly button down) is abit long, but I could be wrong.

Thanks PKD for the kind words!
In fact i had the same feeling about the lower body when seeing the render, but hell, i didnít change there anything since the last turnaround animation. Itís possibly the viewing angle, but iíll keep an eye on that. Thanks!
 
Old 08 August 2009   #41
Originally Posted by zokana: What a nice surprise to see your comment here! I love your work - your female characters are absolutely top level, top of the top i would say.
I agree very much with your critique about the "archaic" way i'm building this model. (I've seen this discussion coming when starting the thread - and it's perhaps time to explain my reasons for the ugly mesh)

But first of all i need to say, the character will be used in Poser. The main reason for the Poser export is some experience with scripting in Poser files, allowing me to create some hidden auto-remoted features, enhancing the movement quality. Several alternative shapes of the model will be included in the final library file, which will be automatically targeted by the bending parameters when animating. The method proved to be very effective already with previous characters i made. (The picture i'm working on currently is featuring my very first model using this method. A preview, showing a little part of the render, blur, bumps and background not in final quality yet: HERE, showing for example elbow auto-deformers in action)

Gretchen has to be built to match the requirements of Wavefront objects and to get best smoothing quality in Poser. Meaning: the resolution is fix, it wont be increased, so i donít need to care about avoiding tri's. Triangles give me the best smoothing results when reducing poly-rows - much better than using "new school" connecting methods with quadrangles (mostly double bent = bent diagonal - worst case when smoothing of Wavefront objects). And the final object file won't be over 1.5MB, so together with her auto-functions Gretchen will be quite simple to animate.

On the other hand i must confess, i never used ZBrush and I wished i'd have it. Is there any possibility to export from ZBrush into Wavefront format, and won't I get a horrifyingly high resolution?

BTW Lee: did you do more experiments with ringflash lighting? Would be great to see the results!


I understand now your choice of work flow. Good luck with the port over to Poser, if you can pull that off then you are a true master.

I cant wait to see how your project moves forward and thank you for your kind comments.

I only got so far with ringflash lighting experiments but they are dead easy and fun to do, well in Lightwave anyway. Your girl would look awesome rendered and lit with a flash photography effect. Will you try it? or even perhaps experiment with top lighting, side lighting etc. It would be great to see on Gretchen.

BTW I have a really cool .fla file for Publishing 100 frame interactive spin animations of characters. If you want it just email me, it's easy to update and modify.
 
Old 08 August 2009   #42
Thumbs up

(first post wohoo )

I really like the results.
However, if you'd decide to animate this or put that mesh into Zbrush, you'd definitely get some problems due to all the triangles.
Zbrush hates triangles, and when it comes to animating your character, you can get some real annoying issues around the knee, but also in the face when it comes to blend shaping etc.

I definitely don't want to come off as a wise-a**, but I've just recently experienced the exact thing, and my teacher is a well known modeller here in Sweden, and he also says that triangles is something you want to stay away from in any way you can.
Im talking strictly about animation and Zbrush/Mudboxing now.
For still images, your mesh can basicly look however you want, just that it looks good when you smooth it
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Old 08 August 2009   #43
Originally Posted by INFINITE: I understand now your choice of work flow. Good luck with the port over to Poser, if you can pull that off then you are a true master.

I cant wait to see how your project moves forward and thank you for your kind comments.

I only got so far with ringflash lighting experiments but they are dead easy and fun to do, well in Lightwave anyway. Your girl would look awesome rendered and lit with a flash photography effect. Will you try it? or even perhaps experiment with top lighting, side lighting etc. It would be great to see on Gretchen.

BTW I have a really cool .fla file for Publishing 100 frame interactive spin animations of characters. If you want it just email me, it's easy to update and modify.

"dead easy"? I did try to apply ringflash effects some times ago and wasnít able to get convincing results. However, for the piece mentioned (shown in the link above) i plan a flash effect seen often in fashion work: set of flash lights combined with long exposure and available lighting, resulting in crispy sharpness and lovely motion blur (no tripod). Haha, don't ask me yet how to do it...

For the presentation of Gretchen i would like some extreme polaroid effects, like in the very first render(resp. animation) in this thread, but much stronger. Something very very "artistic" (to keep it presentable in the face of hopefully realistic nudity) in the manner of fashion genius Paolo Roversi... Iím not sure yet about the lighting, evtl lowkey with hard back light.(?)

Thanks a lot for offering the .fla file - seems you donít like my 72frm turn . I agree, the functionality of my control buttons isn't that fancy - i was to lazy to study the action script book... You'll get my email.

Thanks a lot
 
Old 08 August 2009   #44
oh damn my bad! I couldnt get your flash version to work before, it looks ace. Her hair is stunning!
 
Old 09 September 2009   #45
Originally Posted by Lightweight: (first post wohoo )

I really like the results.
However, if you'd decide to animate this or put that mesh into Zbrush, you'd definitely get some problems due to all the triangles.
Zbrush hates triangles, and when it comes to animating your character, you can get some real annoying issues around the knee, but also in the face when it comes to blend shaping etc.

I definitely don't want to come off as a wise-a**, but I've just recently experienced the exact thing, and my teacher is a well known modeller here in Sweden, and he also says that triangles is something you want to stay away from in any way you can.
Im talking strictly about animation and Zbrush/Mudboxing now.
For still images, your mesh can basicly look however you want, just that it looks good when you smooth it

Thanks Daniel!
About reducing rows with tri's: better smoothing if angles are kept wide (polys follow the shape without havig square quadrangles inbetween), but i agree, they are bad if needing to change the resolution. Please see also my previous post #39 about the reasons for my triangles.
 
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