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Old 05 May 2013   #16
You really try to scukpt a realistic wolf?? because you jump on the fur without correcting your modeling. Stop jumping and come back to the blocking.. at less the head
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Old 05 May 2013   #17
Originally Posted by Scote: You really try to scukpt a realistic wolf?? because you jump on the fur without correcting your modeling. Stop jumping and come back to the blocking.. at less the head


To be honest, it wasn't until I compared the rendered w/fur version to the reference photo that I could even see what was wrong with the head. Without the context of the fur, the proportions are very hard to compare to any reference photos. So I guess I'm going to be making some more changes the slow way (but the only way...)

Also, it seems wolves have a much different head shape than the dog in that anatomy drawing? The forehead seems much taller and more rounded: http://www.jon-atkinson.com/Large%2...%20Wolf%203.jpg

Last edited by jtheninja : 05 May 2013 at 02:18 AM.
 
Old 05 May 2013   #18
More tweaking:
 
Old 05 May 2013   #19
Normal dog skull are like wolf skull. So you can base your basic shaoe head on any dog skull side view.. The main problem for you is the nose the jaw and the eyes position
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Old 05 May 2013   #20
OK, lots more face work. Calling it a night (and thus a weekend) at this point. I think I finally managed to get the eye height and spacing right, although I might need to sink them into the skull a little more. Snout/nose/jaw still need a little tweaking too. (and it needs textures and a rig still...and an environment.....)

Front view:


Quarter view:


Scote and tibbi, thank you for beating me into refining this so far. I would've had a much crappier result and learned a hell of lot less about anatomy and character modeling than I have so far.
 
Old 05 May 2013   #21
While a lot of things have improved it's still a long ways from a realistic wolf sculpt.

The back still drops down too sharply. The back can do this, but it happens when the animal is crouching. The hind legs of your model are straightened in a relaxed standing pose. So the back should be level.

The legs while much better in length and overall shape, lack definition. Leg bones are close the the surface, particularly around the joints. Study some pictures and see the subtle shapes from as many angles as you can find. If you can get your hands on a friendly dog it would really help. Feel those legs, let your hands tell you where the leg is thick, where it's thin. How the bones rise and fall. Where there is muscle and where it's just bone and tendon. Sculpting realistically requires studying the real thing.

The skull really isn't there yet. It needs more definition around the eye socket and muzzle. The eye are where the skull is the widest. The eyes themselves seem very small. Also you haven't given him any eye lids. There is bare, dark skin around the eye. Try to find some close up of wolf eyes.

The nose seems small and sticks out too far on the end. Take another look at that.

The model would also benefit from defining the lips. There is quit a bit of detail in the mouth. It's just going to take close study to work it out. But like the eyes the mouth has bare skin along the lips. The hair is very short and fine where it meets the lips as well.

Unless he has his upper lip pulled back the upper teeth won't show. The upper lip when relaxed covers them.

Because you haven't opened his mouth very much the lower teeth would also be hidden.

The ears on your guy are at kind of an odd angle. I've tipped them a little farther forward.

The hair is a whole new area of study. It's going to take looking at a lot of pictures and fluffy dogs to understand the direction of hair growth. Huskies are the most wolf like domestic dogs. If you get a chance to see one of them up close it would really help.

I've tired to indicate the hair growth pattern on your model, but it doesn't really tell the full story. Because this thing is 3D you need to understand the hair not only the from the side, but the top, and bottom as well.

From my brief study of some reference pictures it looks to me like the hair is thickest on the lower neck and over the jaw. But it's not really long and silky. It looks like it stands out from the body where it's really dense around the face and neck. Lays flat along the back and sides. Is perhaps longest on the belly and hangs down below the abdomen.

 
Old 05 May 2013   #22
Originally Posted by tibbi: While a lot of things have improved it's still a long ways from a realistic wolf sculpt.

The back still drops down too sharply. The back can do this, but it happens when the animal is crouching. The hind legs of your model are straightened in a relaxed standing pose. So the back should be level.

The legs while much better in length and overall shape, lack definition. Leg bones are close the the surface, particularly around the joints. Study some pictures and see the subtle shapes from as many angles as you can find. If you can get your hands on a friendly dog it would really help. Feel those legs, let your hands tell you where the leg is thick, where it's thin. How the bones rise and fall. Where there is muscle and where it's just bone and tendon. Sculpting realistically requires studying the real thing.

The skull really isn't there yet. It needs more definition around the eye socket and muzzle. The eye are where the skull is the widest. The eyes themselves seem very small. Also you haven't given him any eye lids. There is bare, dark skin around the eye. Try to find some close up of wolf eyes.

The nose seems small and sticks out too far on the end. Take another look at that.

The model would also benefit from defining the lips. There is quit a bit of detail in the mouth. It's just going to take close study to work it out. But like the eyes the mouth has bare skin along the lips. The hair is very short and fine where it meets the lips as well.

Unless he has his upper lip pulled back the upper teeth won't show. The upper lip when relaxed covers them.

Because you haven't opened his mouth very much the lower teeth would also be hidden.

The ears on your guy are at kind of an odd angle. I've tipped them a little farther forward.

The hair is a whole new area of study. It's going to take looking at a lot of pictures and fluffy dogs to understand the direction of hair growth. Huskies are the most wolf like domestic dogs. If you get a chance to see one of them up close it would really help.

I've tired to indicate the hair growth pattern on your model, but it doesn't really tell the full story. Because this thing is 3D you need to understand the hair not only the from the side, but the top, and bottom as well.

From my brief study of some reference pictures it looks to me like the hair is thickest on the lower neck and over the jaw. But it's not really long and silky. It looks like it stands out from the body where it's really dense around the face and neck. Lays flat along the back and sides. Is perhaps longest on the belly and hangs down below the abdomen.




Wow. Thanks for all that. Gives me something to focus on. I really appreciate it. On the teeth, they were exaggerated intentionally back when I had some ideas of making him "larger than life" or more nasty looking. The piece has kind of moved away from that, at this point the teeth are about the only piece of that concept I haven't already scrapped, so yeah, I should probably fix that too.
 
Old 05 May 2013   #23
You can still do the teeth. You just have to sculpt the face in a position that will allow the teeth to show.

You have made some good progress. It just takes a lot of in depth study to achieve what you're after. There is so much to learn about anatomy and biomechanics when you're dealing with a living creature.

Good job sticking with it this far. Maybe some time away will give you fresh insight and inspiration.
 
Old 05 May 2013   #24
Much more tweaking and experimenting later....

I've forgotten exactly what ALL the changes that brought me here were, but for those following this little project, the wolf looks like this now:




The biggest thing still eluding me is the fur on the sides of the head. I can't seem to quite get it to stick out right. It's WAYY to flat in this version, which is why his head seems to lack part of the "diamond shape" that wolf heads tend to get. Also, the forehead shapes feels to flat, need to experiment some there in the coming few days. I also need to double-check my textures to figure out why his lips look slivery and not black. And there are some weird fur patches on the face, and general lack of coverage on the ears...

I was also planning on having some plants and other environment stuff semi-finished to post tonight, but I got too lost messing with the fur on the wolf. Hopefully those will be around in another update or two.
 
Old 05 May 2013   #25
The biggest challenge you are facing is to get the anatomy to be expressive. All the parts of the model have their own character. You have had some great anatomy help already. Getting that base form correct is very difficult indeed. Your form has improved a bit over the course of the wip but you still need to knock it into shape at the lowest level without fur or textures.

I am doing the same with a horse atm so I can identify with the struggle
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Old 05 May 2013   #26
Originally Posted by Kanga: The biggest challenge you are facing is to get the anatomy to be expressive. All the parts of the model have their own character. You have had some great anatomy help already. Getting that base form correct is very difficult indeed. Your form has improved a bit over the course of the wip but you still need to knock it into shape at the lowest level without fur or textures.

I am doing the same with a horse atm so I can identify with the struggle


Believe me, I've been back and forth with the base mesh plenty too. One nice thing about doing all this in Blender is it's simple to jump back and forth between the base mesh, the sculpt, and fur. One thing that makes this hard with a wolf is how much of their shape and appearance is in their fur. One article here I've found very helpful was the New Moon production focus, on how they did the wolves: http://www.cgsociety.org/index.php/...pecial/new_moon

You can see their hairless mesh on that page, and it looks nothing like a wolf. The final push comes in the fur, but you also have to get the base right so the fur falls into place correctly.

Last edited by jtheninja : 05 May 2013 at 02:53 PM.
 
Old 05 May 2013   #27
I buy so time ago Schleich figures: a wolf and a horse. Because I tought: well if I don't find good orthographic views of animals I could use them as guides.

Never start my wolf or my horse. But I can share with you my head view of the wolf. Can help you block the eyes distance and the fur shape.

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Old 05 May 2013   #28
Ok, an exasperated update:

I. Cannot. Get. His. Expression. Right.

This is what his face looks like in a closeup:


This is my reference (the two images will line up if you want to lay them over each other)



No matter what I do, his expression seems to come out as some form of "derpy". I've spent hours trying to figure out what's wrong in the face here. I feel I've made some progress, but it seems I'm still missing something pretty major. But I can't figure out what. He never seems to be able to get that sad/stoic "wolfy" expression. I've been through dozens of images on Google, multiple guides on drawing wolves, flipped through examples of human faces, and I just cannot figure it out. What I have above is the best I've managed to get.

Also. fwiw, here's another angle which is more like what the final camera angle is going to be.

 
Old 05 May 2013   #29
I tried to indicate some of the facial shapes I'm seeing as well as the length and direction of hair growth. I made the eyes and nose larger. Notice how close the nose is to the mouth. Notice also the fine hair just covering the black skin along the line of the lips. Also I think he has a few too many whiskers.

You have come a long ways with this and if you can stand to struggle with it some more you're going to have a pretty nice model.

 
Old 05 May 2013   #30
Originally Posted by tibbi: I tried to indicate some of the facial shapes I'm seeing as well as the length and direction of hair growth. I made the eyes and nose larger. Notice how close the nose is to the mouth. Notice also the fine hair just covering the black skin along the line of the lips. Also I think he has a few too many whiskers.

You have come a long ways with this and if you can stand to struggle with it some more you're going to have a pretty nice model.



Thank you very much. I'll see what I can come up with from that.
 
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