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  08 August 2012
@ Lunatique and Quadart I do get what you guys are saying. It would be difficult to have evey piece submitted be in the showcase. It would turn into something similar to "most recent" on deviantart which is just madness and full of a lot of poor quality work. I think a really good suggestion though is to, at the very least, have the ability to comment on all of the work on CGSociety, even if it gets rejected from the showcase.

Quote: There isnít much constructive criticism going on in the Wip forums and hardly any at all in the galleries. So what are you going on about?


You may be a bit jaded by CGS by now, some people are, but many new digital artists would love even the most mild of feedback. And even though you can still view peices in the CGPortfolio you can't comment on them. I would think that should be something applied to all work on CGS.
 
  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by amscime: I think a really good suggestion though is to, at the very least, have the ability to comment on all of the work on CGSociety, even if it gets rejected from the showcase.


The forum leaders have been suggesting this to CGS for a while now, but it's a huge technical project to take on, as it will require an overhaul of the entire CGPortfolio sysem. It is on their to-do list, and I have no idea when it'll be done.
 
  08 August 2012
I would rather see a more consistent set of rules of the judging process, maybe a post about the whole judging process could be posted in the forum as a standalone thread to give us more understanding.... I still don't fully understand how you guys vote on a particular post made in the finished galleries.....
 
  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by whom: I would rather see a more consistent set of rules of the judging process, maybe a post about the whole judging process could be posted in the forum as a standalone thread to give us more understanding.... I still don't fully understand how you guys vote on a particular post made in the finished galleries.....


-All submitted works show up on a page, with radial selection choices next to each image. We can vote for or against an image, or leave it and not cast a vote, or vote "no chance" for the really obvious rejects (no name given, no description, unfinished, submissions flooding with too many images, complete beginner level work, "Gallerie Abominate" level work, etc).

-It requires two votes to accept or reject an image. It is not a majority vote, because it is believed that there may not be enough consistently day-to-day voting judges for that approach, and images will be held up in the judging cue for far to long before it reaches a majority vote. All judges are volunteers, and are busy professionals, so this is understandable. When life/work gets busy, it's hard to set aside any time to do this type of volunteer work.

-Judges and vote up or down images, so an image that's gotten one vote for or against it is flagged red or yellow (reject or accept), and it'll take only one more vote agreeing with the existing vote to determine its fate. But if a judge disagrees with the existing vote, he could vote in the opposite direction, resetting the flag to neutral, and thus restarting the voting process for that image, and it'll need to get two votes in either direction again. Sometimes judges do get into a tug-of-war when they disagree with each other, voting up and down an image, and when that happens, we usually go into the forum leader's private forums and discuss/debate why the image should be accepted or rejected.

-When images are rejected, we have a drop-down menu with the various explanations for each stock situation (you didn't include your name, your work is unfinished, your work does not meet the quality level, etc). We do not write responses catering to each rejection--there are far too many images in the cue for us to do that, that's why everyone gets the same sets of stock responses according to the reason the image was rejected.

And that's it.

Most judges do not participate in the WIP forums. Some judges used to give critiques here, but due to frequent unpleasant reactions some members (indignation, insults, immature sense of entitlement), the other judges and forum leaders pretty much all but stopped participating, preferring not to be insulted and deal with personal attacks for trying to help people. There are very few of us that give critiques here now, and even fewer who do it consistently.
 
  08 August 2012
Lunatique, I really appreciate you taking the time to clarify the judging process, sounds complicated enough that. Hmm.. I am not sure how to make that more consistent though....
 
  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by Quadart: There isnít much constructive criticism going on in the Wip forums and hardly any at all in the galleries. So what are you going on about?



You can see everything that was submitted to a gallery that was both accepted into it and rejected from it by going to the Browse CGPortfolio, as submitting work to a gallery is an option when submitting work to your CGPortfolio.

http://portfolio.cgsociety.org/browse/index.php

Now you tell me if you want to see everything submitted to a CGP in the basic galleries.

In my opinion, every constructive comments (no matter how few) can help, especially when you do not have the luxury of being in an art school or working in an environment of artists. I should know, every time I created something, friends and family will say looks great. Maybe good for morale, but doesn't help me improve. For many of us, to post our work online is the only way to get (or at least have a chance) to get useful feedback.

The low traffic & number of constructive feedback (in both WIP & finished galleries) are disappointing at times, considered the amount of members in the community, but this is another discussion.

Ok, I honestly do not know there is a CGPortfolio, to be fair. I thought the only way to see is to click on a person avatar. My bad.

I would suggest to have a comment option, but this has been mention already.
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  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by Lunatique:
Most judges do not participate in the WIP forums. Some judges used to give critiques here, but due to frequent unpleasant reactions some members (indignation, insults, immature sense of entitlement), the other judges and forum leaders pretty much all but stopped participating, preferring not to be insulted and deal with personal attacks for trying to help people. There are very few of us that give critiques here now, and even fewer who do it consistently.


If judges do not take the lead to participate in giving feedback, how do you expect others to do so? Just a thought.
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  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by PKD: If judges do not take the lead to participate in giving feedback, how do you expect others to do so? Just a thought.


The judges are forum leaders that volunteer their free time to help decide which images get accepted into the Showcase Gallery. They are not obligated to also give critiques to anyone.

The WIP forum is for the entire cgtalk community--anyone can come and give critiques. It just happens that because cgtalk has traditionally been more of a 3D/technical-oriented community, there aren't a lot of proficient 2D artists that participate in the community (most only use this community as self-promotion--to showcase their work, to join the CG Challenges). Look at how many amazing 2D artists are showcased at CGSociety, and then look at how many of them actually participate in the forums at all.

We've been trying to get more advanced 2D artists to involve themselves in this community for years, and we haven't gotten anywhere, because the majority of this community is made up of the more technical 3D guys than people who actually draw/paint seriously.
 
  08 August 2012
Originally Posted by Lunatique: The judges are forum leaders that volunteer their free time to help decide which images get accepted into the Showcase Gallery. They are not obligated to also give critiques to anyone.

The WIP forum is for the entire cgtalk community--anyone can come and give critiques. It just happens that because cgtalk has traditionally been more of a 3D/technical-oriented community, there aren't a lot of proficient 2D artists that participate in the community (most only use this community as self-promotion--to showcase their work, to join the CG Challenges). Look at how many amazing 2D artists are showcased at CGSociety, and then look at how many of them actually participate in the forums at all.

We've been trying to get more advanced 2D artists to involve themselves in this community for years, and we haven't gotten anywhere, because the majority of this community is made up of the more technical 3D guys than people who actually draw/paint seriously.


You mistaken what I am trying to say. I am not suggesting that judges need to be actively participate in giving feedback.

What I am implying is what you said earlier, that many judges do not participate for fear of personal insult & such, & not just due to lack of time. If that is the case, then how do you convince others to participate?

Anyway, thanks for the detail explanation. The 3D WIP area ain't very active either.

I agree with you, some people uses this community mainly for promotion & showcase only (nothing wrong), & of course, I believe many forumers, especially beginners, or inspiring artist wished for more guidance, but that not an easy task to encourage more participation.

It could be that some of the people are not confidence enough to commute in English, it is especially hard to explain technical & abstract terms & ideas, hence they are happy just to post their work.

Anyway, despite still have many disagreements with this forum, particularly the new (or is it new?) rules for acceptance for submitted work, I appreciate the time & effort from forum leaders, & keep up the good work.
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  08 August 2012
I'm confused. From this sticky it seems like you are only allowed to post to the WiP section if you are already good. Yet.. the point of a WiP/Critique is to help you improve. If my interpretation of this is correct.. then doesn't this mean that the artists that actually need the help are going to be excluded from the very forum that would be the place to get that help?
 
  09 September 2012
Originally Posted by MikeLawler: I'm confused. From this sticky it seems like you are only allowed to post to the WiP section if you are already good. Yet.. the point of a WiP/Critique is to help you improve. If my interpretation of this is correct.. then doesn't this mean that the artists that actually need the help are going to be excluded from the very forum that would be the place to get that help?


You must have misread something. Where does it say that in this thread?
 
  09 September 2012
Originally Posted by Lunatique: You must have misread something. Where does it say that in this thread?

The very first post?
Just the example of the rabbit picture alone is enough to make it seem like we aren't allowed to post something unless the image is "complete".. which is a huge WTF for a WiP section. On top of that.. It needs to be original and all that other stuff. Well.. I create whatever comes into my head.. and unless someone tells me/points out to me what I can do to make my work more original compared to what I'm already doing then I will keep making the same tired stuff. I submitted a 2d piece a week or so ago that is basically an example of where I keep getting stuck on my work.. and I didn't get a rejection letter nor did it get posted.. I don't think I need to point out that no artist can improve their work in a vacuum. There are amazing artists here but it feels very much like you have to be "in" to get posted.. even in the "hey I'm crappy, help me not be" section.
Is my attitude kinda sour by now? Yeah.. but I submitted stuff in hopes of getting genuine feedback and have been left on virtual "hold" for over a week. I want to be part of this community.. but it just seems like the bar for getting past the gate is so much higher than places like WIP or CGHUB. If that's the case, I would just like to be told so.. so that I can stop wasting my time here.
 
  09 September 2012
Originally Posted by MikeLawler: The very first post?
Just the example of the rabbit picture alone is enough to make it seem like we aren't allowed to post something unless the image is "complete".. which is a huge WTF for a WiP section. On top of that.. It needs to be original and all that other stuff. Well.. I create whatever comes into my head.. and unless someone tells me/points out to me what I can do to make my work more original compared to what I'm already doing then I will keep making the same tired stuff. I submitted a 2d piece a week or so ago that is basically an example of where I keep getting stuck on my work.. and I didn't get a rejection letter nor did it get posted.. I don't think I need to point out that no artist can improve their work in a vacuum. There are amazing artists here but it feels very much like you have to be "in" to get posted.. even in the "hey I'm crappy, help me not be" section.
Is my attitude kinda sour by now? Yeah.. but I submitted stuff in hopes of getting genuine feedback and have been left on virtual "hold" for over a week. I want to be part of this community.. but it just seems like the bar for getting past the gate is so much higher than places like WIP or CGHUB. If that's the case, I would just like to be told so.. so that I can stop wasting my time here.


You are confusing two completely different things.

This thread is talking about the SHOWCASE GALLERY, not the WIP forums. The WIP forums is open for anybody to post in. The Showcase Gallery submissions goes through a judging process. Two totally separate things.

The images that you add to your CGPortfolio have the option of being submitted to the Showcase Gallery too--it's up to you if you want to check that box and submit the piece for the judging process. If your work is accepted, it shows up in the Showcase Gallery. If not, then you get a rejection notice. It's then up to you IF you want to post it in the WIP forums for peer review/critiques. If you don't do anything, the piece still remains in your CGPortfolio for everyone to see.

Images submitted to the judging for the Showcase Gallery might remain in the judging cue for a while, depending on how busy the judges are. It could be days and even a week before it passes through the cue.
 
  11 November 2012
Thanks for your post- its so insightful and very helpful. Really apreciate what you have written. And everyone comments.

I posted a piece of work and came to the conclusion that there is a certain level of phot-realism, smoothness and blending requred to make an image look finished.
Times have changed and its all in the finer details, CG must have some realism, not look impressionist in any way.

I relate it back to modenist paintion in the 1900's when Manet's work was unfinished by 'The Salon' in Paris- considered to be crudely painted and un-finished.
Same was said about Cezanne. It's impressionism. I think that CG is the oppersite to that, realism and hyper realism.

Even if something is fantasy, mythical, caricature, stylised it must look free from brush strokes and look as if it exists in a real world space, touchable, FINELY FINISHED.Nothing sketchy. (like mine).

That's what this site displays the best examples of. Like rownd says's it raises the bar and well done for that!!!

I dont take it to heart because my work is different currently. I have no problem with that, I get work illustrating and people pay me to do my work as it is now. Ive just had the privilage to work at the Olympics and Paralympics as an illustrator so i'm not insecure about my work as an illustrator. his site is more challenging than that and I like that.


Work here is specific to a style of work and a standard that mutally considered correct. If I want to participate I need to work up to standard. Good.

We do need to know - see- better examples of standards than the 3D rabbit model the person that started this post pointed out that they are using on submission page at the moment... Sooo true!! Outdated by a long way.

There should be a guidelines portfolio of 10 examples permanently available as a link on submission page.

Just my thoughts. As I have had this account for 6 years from when I was doing 3D for games. Nothing was ever solely my work so I never posted anything till now, as ive been too busy. Still a newby really.
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  11 November 2012
to add

We are visual people and if we could see examples of pieces that were first rejected, then reworked, then accepted that would be really helpful. To see the actual image's instead of reading up on a thread. Actual pictures.

Also examples of 'almost accepted'- to help define where the line of acceptance is. Would be really useful when considering making submissions. This would also mean less wasted valuble time for the judges. People would'nt post so many things not up to standard.
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