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Old 08-02-2012, 09:07 PM   #16
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You really should look over your voting system as some artworks being posted are really not up to standard, feels like a bad joke when your own artwork gets declined and you see something far worse in the finished gallery accepted.... seems to me you are only voting based upon brushstrokes and polished for no reason, polished does not always makes an artwork better...
This does not usually get to me but now I have had 3 finished pieces declined in a row so I removed all of my work.
Maybe I will post my 3d work, I am not sure of that anymore though.


I can tell you right now that some of the judges LOVE expressive brushwork, and PREFER them over sterile, over-polished, soulless images.

What some people have to understand (and learn as an artist), is that not all "painterly" brushwork are the same. Many artists who aren't quite advanced enough yet, will often not understand the difference between brush economy/speed/messiness vs. deliberate expressiveness. Many of today's artists mistakenly think that messy brushwork = "cool speedpainting," and that is a very common misconception.

Expressive brushwork of quality requires selective detailing and precise handling, and the fact it is expressive does not mean it is inherently messy and unfocused. The brushwork has to describe the surface types you are depicting, and the way you build the forms and selective details has to have a sense of hierarchy in both narrative and compositional importance. One can't just indiscriminately slap on quick and vague brushstrokes that have no clear purpose in its deployment for specific surface type, description of form, and ability to focus or unfocus selective details according to the needs of the composition.

Now, I'm not sure which images you deleted from your portfolio, or which ones have been rejected most recently--I've been too busy teaching the CGWorkshop to have had time to do much Showcase Gallery judging lately (though I remember a couple of your images from the past). But it would be incorrect to assume they are rejected purely because of lack of polish, or any other reason you might think. Sometimes images are rejected simply because they are so cliched and boring, without demonstrating anything interesting or compelling in its composition, lighting, painting, and so on. Such images aren't "bad"--they are simply kind of "meh" in the eyes of the judges who rejected them. But not all judges agree on what is "meh." I personally would accept images that are technically and artistically sound, even if it's boring and unremarkable in any way (unless it is so boring and cliched that even I couldn't vote to accept it with a straight face). If I don't see glaring technical/artistic issues, I will generally vote to accept it, regardless of subject matter or style. Some judges are a lot more picky, wanting to see more than just the most boring/standard composition, uninteresting lighting, trite subject matter, etc.

I personally think your dragon image was quite good, though I don't think I had the chance to vote on it for the judging panel. Your other two paintings I see on your website are kind of borderline for me (I remember giving a critique on the sci-fi one).

As for the images that are accepted into the Showcase Gallery, I have previously explained in this thread that not all judges agree with each other on what should be accepted, just like how they often don't agree on what should be rejected. This is unavoidable, because unless we let machines do the judging, human beings will have different opinions, and no matter how objective we try to be, or implement a majority-vote system, there will always be disagreements. A majority-vote system merely means that the dominating opinion wins over the minority opinion, but it's still a disagreement.
 
Old 08-03-2012, 06:27 AM   #17
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I can see if I keep continue that there will be an no end discussion but you gotta admit that the voting system should be looked over? ....I think I saw you wrote something about it too in some thread. Optimally I see a one month finished piece post by each member or something, instead of voting.
If my pieces are judged boring and cliched I assume it goes down to style too and that was a suspicion I started to have when I got rejected again, something with my style that does'nt agree with the voting system or judges.
Nevertheless I haven't kept that much attention to this until recently and I rather use my time to create art than post and get rejected.

...I am not saying my art is perfect either because yes I could get a lot better in all fields but hey you gotta have room for us who work with this sparetime too, right?
 
Old 08-03-2012, 06:56 AM   #18
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I hear ya. There's only so much influence I have. I'm just a guy that got asked to help out as a judge, writer, moderator, and instructor for cgtalk/Ballistic Publishing/CGWorkshop years ago by the original founder of cgtalk (Leo Teo). He's long gone (sold his shares years ago), but I'm still around helping out, volunteering my time, as well as teaching a workshop here.

As anyone who's been around would know, I'm not afraid to tell it like it is. Believe me, I tell the guys responsible what I think of the ineffective judging system we have now. They know that I think it needs to be revamped. They're just far too busy with much more urgent matters such as revamping the entire CGPortfolios system, CGWorkshop's forum system, and other huge undertakings. I'll keep hammering them about this stuff, but I'm just one guy.
 
Old 08-03-2012, 12:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whom
You really should look over your voting system as some artworks being posted are really not up to standard, feels like a bad joke when your own artwork gets declined and you see something far worse in the finished gallery accepted.... seems to me you are only voting based upon brushstrokes and polished for no reason, polished does not always makes an artwork better...

Out of curiosity, I’d like to know what you would do as a judge validating the work that goes into the showcase gallery. Would you have rejected the work you deemed as inferior to your ‘power station’ and ‘wanders’ pieces while accepting yours (if someone else beside you had done the pieces)? Would you lower the standards bar to the point that everything would be accepted, other than a preview rendered cube on a blank background or a 2d painted polar bear in a blinding blizzard scene (as in blank white canvas)?

A person deeming that their work is ‘finished’ because of all the time and effort they invested into it does not mean it somehow automatically possesses a suitable level of quality for the gallery, whether that quality is based on technical or purely artistic criteria.

I voted down the ‘power station’ work.
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthr...?f=31&t=1058983

Is that supposed to be a dessert floor the station is resting on? It certainly doesn’t look like it’s floating in the sky. I shouldn’t have to guess. You chose to do a piece driven by structure and you created a confusing mess of greebled patterns and substructures that do not support each other in ways that could have strengthened it. You’ve gummed the image up by over using and abusing black shadowing everywhere. If you’re going to use the, overused, tilted horizon—tilt it. Right now it looks like a poorly taken photo. I can go on.

I also voted down your empty-space-with-two-tree-trunks piece. Why? Too much empty, meaninglessly empty, space. If the work lacks technical prowess or eye candy appeal--some kind of artistic appeal, I’m going to look for pure meaning/message--and not worn out clichés that are neither cleverly or humorously conveyed.

For a lot of the work in the gallery people claim as inferior to there rejected pieces, I’m sure I can give plenty of reasons why they’re wrong. All the time and effort people put into making their ‘babies’ tends to make them temporarily blind to practical objective judgment.

I agree with Lunatique that the judging system is not perfect, but I believe that the discrepancy in the judging is not that wide. It is only perceived to be Grand Canyon wide by the minority of folks that like to flirt with the margin of acceptable quality, and as such they shouldn’t be surprised when they are caught up in the blurry gray zone results.

There are things in the showcase gallery that I don’t think belong there and things that were rejected that I think should have been accepted (your 2 pieces don’t apply here), that goes for the CG Choice gallery as well.

All that said, I looked over your website and am impressed with quite a few of your concept pieces. For some reason your work seems to loose it’s life, compositional strength and atmosphere as you flesh it out. This is what happened with the ‘station’ piece. The sketches have life and lots of potential.
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Last edited by Quadart : 08-03-2012 at 01:05 PM.
 
Old 08-03-2012, 01:56 PM   #20
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Quadart, to be honest I have seen some of the votes that you have made and where you also commented the members piece afterwards, (I am not into single out anyone though) where that particular work is far worse than mine.... I think you are commenting style here rather than anything, the latest piece that I posted I wanted to be diffused by fog and those two big trees are just the entry to that canyon.
I do know that my work is not the greatest, however I guess I started to notice then un-even quality of how you the judges vote each piece. I am probably echoing what "amscime" talked about in his thread though.
It had to be that way...

Don't expect me to post anymore 2d though if you are gonna go after style more than anything else....
I appreciate the straightforwardness, I hope you do the same.
 
Old 08-03-2012, 02:44 PM   #21
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Don't expect me to post anymore 2d though if you are gonna go after style more than anything else....

Style is one of many characteristics of an illustration. I hardly use it as my sole criteria for evaluating art.

You’ll have to come up with a more creative excuse than that.
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadart
Style is one of many characteristics of an illustration. I hardly use it as my sole criteria for evaluating art.

You’ll have to come up with a more creative excuse than that.



I am not giving you any excuses as I think there's always two sides to everything. I can find a lot of things to critique in your artwork too. I think you are coming off as a bit rude when you comment anything related to voting, question is why?
You were very rude to amscime in his thread.

Can you please explain why you made this particular piece accepted below:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthr...f=133&t=1062389

I see many problems in it and almost the same problems that you explained that my artwork had. You are kind of highorsing absolutes to what kind of things that works and are not working, if you prefer any of my speedier work before my detailed work is something that I don't understand at all.
A quick concept has the possibility to read several things into it as the more detailed gives more readability.
 
Old 08-03-2012, 05:12 PM   #23
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I am not giving you any excuses as I think there's always two sides to everything. I can find a lot of things to critique in your artwork too. I think you are coming off as a bit rude when you comment anything related to voting, question is why?
You were very rude to amscime in his thread.

Can you please explain why you made this particular piece accepted below:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthr...f=133&t=1062389

I see many problems in it and almost the same problems that you explained that my artwork had. You are kind of highorsing absolutes to what kind of things that works and are not working, if you prefer any of my speedier work before my detailed work is something that I don't understand at all.
A quick concept has the possibility to read several things into it as the more detailed gives more readability.

Personally, I wouldn’t mind if everything were accepted into the gallery. I don’t get my inspiration from the vast majority of the work in any of the galleries. What instigates frankness are the ‘rude’ people who create these cry-baby rejection threads/posts and bash other people’s work in their pathetic retaliation rants. Does that answer your question?

What makes you so sure I voted for the plane image you linked to? I don’t vote nor see everything that goes through the validation goose, nor is my vote the only one that decides which direction a piece goes in. If your work is accepted or rejected it is a result of multiple votes, not a single vote.

The fact that you chose Maria’s Decoy work to bash tells me you need to get out and expand your visual arts horizon. Your 'station' and ‘wanders’ works do not compare slightly as finished visual images to the quality of Maria’s work. Your ‘station’ piece is a visual mess of values, contrasts, linear perspective, and color. Maria’s work is well orchestrated in all of those areas, to the point where you cannot even compare the two qualitatively. The ‘wander’ is pretty much compositionally static, boring, and unimaginative. Maria’s piece, on the other hand, is compositionally strong and creative. There’s nothing stereotypical about this very simple but graphically strong piece. The work draws and maintains a viewers attention—another important attriute of successful visual imagery that your two works are lacking in—general aesthetic appeal.
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Last edited by Quadart : 08-03-2012 at 05:28 PM.
 
Old 08-04-2012, 09:03 AM   #24
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Quadart, first of all I didn't bash that piece above but I had to post the link for sake of arguement. I feel your comment there tells us a bit about your judgement, clearly you bash my work but at the same time approve that piece. I think that tells us a lot. Funny you say her piece works well in compositonal placement, her plane is heading outwards of the picture and the action is going out of the picture.
You want action back into the composition. And the sky is also as you called my desert in my piece a blurry fog.... Nothing to say it is a sky rather than that we are seeing a plane in the sky.
Placement is really important in a piece, repetitive patterns are also an important factor to be aware of which something you are taught in the decorative field.

Do not take me for a newbie, just because I have been looking for a new style with the works I've been posting on my site the latest year doesn't mean that I don't know a lot about color theory, compositional placement etc. I've been in this forum since 2003.... I made a new account in 2009 because my portfolio didn't work....

And btw you asked me about how I would act as a judge, I wouldn't cause I don't like power positions. Usually I don't critique either as I feel it is up to the original artist what he wants to say with his works.
I am just pointing out problems here with the voting system here and you approving pieces that are not up to par which proves the point even more that there is a problem with the voting system.
A fair system would maintain a consistent viewing, and be judged by different things in the piece.
Maybe a one month a piece for each member would be a just system.
 
Old 08-04-2012, 10:51 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whom
Quadart, first of all I didn't bash that piece above but I had to post the link for sake of arguement.

So using the Decoy piece for the sake of argument to compare worthy levels of quality between it and your work is different than what I was referring to in my last post? Okay…
Quote:
Originally Posted by whom
I am just pointing out problems here with the voting system here and you approving pieces that are not up to par which proves the point even more that there is a problem with the voting system.

The 'Decoy' work is well above par for the Showcase gallery. It's too bad that you are too myopic in artistic scope to see that.

Quote:
Funny you say her piece works well in compositonal placement, her plane is heading outwards of the picture and the action is going out of the picture.
You want action back into the composition. And the sky is also as you called my desert in my piece a blurry fog.... Nothing to say it is a sky rather than that we are seeing a plane in the sky.

Again, you’re missing the finer points of the ‘Decoy” work. It is a good example of clear visual communication when compared to your ‘station’ work. Artists learn the ABC rules of composition and the rest of the fundamental principals of image making. Good artists, creative artists, know how and when to break those rules and basic principals to produce effective creative visual solutions.
Context is everything. The image is titled ‘Decoy’. The plane is breaking your cardinal rule of keeping the action/subject in the frame. Your obviously not seeing the forest for the trees here. The vast empty space in the piece is charged with the anticipation of eminent action. The unmanned decoy flying blindly out of the frame is compositionally very effective. As is the case with decoys, especially decoys in motion, they are usually expected to be pursued. There is a clever compositional balance going on here. The decoy exiting the frame (perceived as a compositional imbalance by you apparently) is followed by the anticipation of a mystery pursuer entering the frame from the upper right.
Those artists who can create effective visual messages using minimal visual elements demonstrate a strong capacity to communicate visually. There’s no confusion as to what the brown field is in the Decoy work, as opposed to your work. The few slight squiggles in it representing cloud rim highlights is more than enough to suggest cloud cover, coupled with the smack-over-the-head obvious symbolic connotation of the flying airplane in the scene.

Artists can make excuses for there intentions and work, but the work tells no lies and embodies all of the decisions, good or bad, by the artist.
I listen to the art.

Quote:
A fair system would maintain a consistent viewing, and be judged by different things in the piece.

One of the reasons your work was not accepted and Maria’s was is for the fact that the judging criteria is diverse and not as myopic as you seem to believe.
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Last edited by Quadart : 08-08-2012 at 10:38 AM.
 
Old 08-04-2012, 11:00 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whom
You really should look over your voting system as some artworks being posted are really not up to standard, feels like a bad joke when your own artwork gets declined and you see something far worse in the finished gallery accepted....

I’ve said it before, many times, if you produce work at a sufficient quality and not of marginal quality that subjects it to the fuzzy gray area of unpredictable results in the voting process, you’d be fine. It’s that simple. If you insist on producing work of marginally acceptable quality then the joke (as you call it) is on you.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:56 AM   #27
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here's my thoughts. Not ranting or bashing.

I have been absence from this forum for almost 2 years. I have no idea when this new rules kicked in, or was it always there?

At first, I cannot believe when I heard artworks being rejected. I thought the person was making some mistake (like not checking the send to 3D still gallery box), or the image is too small. After doing a search, I realize that artwork must now not only be complete & original, but also of perceived quality to the judge for it to be accepted. I said perceived, as art itself is subjective, & the judges have said it themselves.

I joined this community when it was fairly young, like 2004, when I started to pick up CG after graduating with an engineering degree. I liked it immediately, as I thought it is a rare place where top professionals, as well as inspiring artists (like myself) can come together.

I loved nice pieces of works, like every other here, but I also liked that beginners, & inspiring artists have the chance to posted in the same pages as professional artist in the finished gallery. It means that inspiring artists also have the chance for their artwork to be viewed by professionals, & a comment (good or negative) from a industrial vet can be inspiring to make them wanted to do better.

In fact, sometimes, I like beginner pieces more, as I can actually help, with a critics or 2, instead of genetic 'excellence work' to the top professional, that frankly do not even need much of an encouragement since most of them are industrial vets.

That's what I like (or used to like) about CGtalk, & I always though that was one of the aim of this community, where professional & amateurs can come together?

There is already a CGchoice gallery, for people who are interested to see only the top artworks, why deprive the chance for others to showcase their finished work? Why deprive the chance for others to get constructive comments or help the poster of the artwork? Why deprive others to see an image that they may actually like (although not by the judges)

Someone mention that if you submit an artwork to a publisher or something, you can get rejected as well, without knowing the reason. But that's the point, this is a community for CG artists, not a exhibition for only high polish artwork.

Also, while in some instances, to repost in WIP thread is good, but as an artist, I wanted my finished work to be in the finished gallery, I wanted to shared it with people, as a milestone, & move on to new projects. Not to mention that the WIP forums are extremely quiet.

In the end, the important question is to ask oneself, whats the purpose of this community? The purpose of the finished galleries?

Unless there are bandwidth problems, or the likes, I much prefer that a reasonable finished work to be allow to be posted in the finished gallery. Let forumers be the judges, & the good ones be in the CGchoice.

Just my 2 cents or €
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Last edited by PKD : 08-19-2012 at 11:12 AM.
 
Old 08-23-2012, 01:43 PM   #28
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Wow ^^PKD^^ for the win I think. You make a lot of great points in my opinion. And I do understand the frustration by whom. Also just on a side note, it's been a while since a 2D piece has made it into the CG Choice Gallery. It has been a run of only 3D. From many of the recent CGS features and such it seems some of the attention to the 2D digital work has been a bit overshadowed? Any thoughts?

Last edited by amscime : 08-23-2012 at 01:51 PM.
 
Old 08-23-2012, 06:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKD
There is already a CGchoice gallery, for people who are interested to see only the top artworks, why deprive the chance for others to get constructive comments or help the poster of the artwork?

There isn’t much constructive criticism going on in the Wip forums and hardly any at all in the galleries. So what are you going on about?


Quote:
Originally Posted by PKD
Why deprive others to see an image that they may actually like (although not by the judges)

You can see everything that was submitted to a gallery that was both accepted into it and rejected from it by going to the Browse CGPortfolio, as submitting work to a gallery is an option when submitting work to your CGPortfolio.

http://portfolio.cgsociety.org/browse/index.php

Now you tell me if you want to see everything submitted to a CGP in the basic galleries.
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Old 08-24-2012, 08:49 AM   #30
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CG Choice Award is for the best of the best--the absolute pinnacle. That is essentially superstar status

Showcase Gallery is technically more like a spotlight gallery, and it not a free-for-all. That's why it's called "Showcase." In other CG portals, the mods might go around and find images they think deserves more attention and spotlight them. In our case, you can choose to submit your work for consideration, and if accepted, it'll show up in the Showcase Gallery. Different process, but similar goal.

If one wants to look at all the works that are not good enough to be showcased, they can simply visit the CGPortfolio as Bill already pointed out. There are hundreds and thousands of works for you to browse.

Majority of the cgtalk members have repeatedly expressed in past public discussions that they prefer tighter quality control, so that when they visit the galleries, they'll always be impressed by the quality of the work. They have also repeated expressed that due to the tighter quality control, it feels more like a worthy accomplishment when they do get accepted. Search the General Discussions area of the forum for related topics and you'll find these discussions.
 
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