Why bother with CG schools?

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  10 October 2003
I do help the problem. I pride myself in finding artists with great potential and pour all of my knowledge into them. I don't keep BS trade secrets. Usually the first thing I do is end up un-teaching them bad habits and incorrect work flows.

All I ask for is a good attitude and a level of dedication that shows how much thier heart is into it...


And Poly, why edit that line out? Read his post... He's saying that he's looked at "Every" picture posted here and the school taught ones are better. Thats not a fair comparison. I don't know anyone who's ever posted thier pics online. So how can you make such statements about quality then? Maybe I should post my 3d work from "Nutty Professor" then, I did it in high school from my basement....would that count then?

Last edited by Jackdeth : 10 October 2003 at 07:25 AM.
 
  10 October 2003
Quote: Maybe people like having it easy these days.


Give me a break. Spending 2 - 4 years and spending 10s of thousands of dollars to be paid off for the rest of your life is "having it easy!"

I dont doubt the quality of your work but you definitely have some unwarranted predispositions against cg schooling.
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  10 October 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jackdeth
I do help the problem. I pride myself in finding artists with great potential and pour all of my knowledge into them. I don't keep BS trade secrets. Usually the first thing I do is end up un-teaching them bad habits and incorrect work flows.

All I ask for is a good attitude and a level of dedication that shows how much thier heart is into it...


And Poly, why edit that line out? Read his post... He's saying that he's looked at "Every" picture posted here and the school taught ones are better. Thats not a fair comparison. I don't know anyone who's ever posted thier pics online. So how can you make such statements about quality then? Maybe I should post my 3d work from "Nutty Professor" then, I did it in high school from my basement....would that count then?


I understand the context but it was still an unfair comment towards the rest of us school-taught people that are plenty humble about our work. "Nutty Professor" might not be a bad idea...if you just wanna post something anonymously so you don't come across as "something to prove" it might be enlightening. See if you do get the same kind of feedback regarding "non-schooled" work as you do "schooled," might be a neat little experiment. I'm not really trying to argue as much as I'm questioning this whole perspective.

So um...I don't understand...if you're teaching...why is it that you are being so harsh regarding school?
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  10 October 2003
Quote: Originally posted by zzacmann
Give me a break. Spending 2 - 4 years and spending 10s of thousands of dollars to be paid off for the rest of your life is "having it easy!"

I dont doubt the quality of your work but you definitely have some unwarranted predispositions against cg schooling.


Spending all of the time and money in the world doesn't mean anything if your heart isn't in it. If you are going to complain how difficult it is all the time...then maybe you should change careers because it won't get any easier. This line of work is really, really, really hard and demands massive hours from you.

I don't dislike school, but I think it is really misused, and most students dont know that until after they finish, and discover that they have to un-learn many things...



And to Poly.....I teach my employees at my company. I did do some teaching at DHIMA in Santa Monica years ago. The best way to learn is in the kitchen while under the flames.....

ps. I did the shot of belly wrapping around the doctor bursting out of the hospital room in Eddie's nightmare.

Last edited by Jackdeth : 10 October 2003 at 07:37 AM.
 
  10 October 2003
Im getting really tired of people talking about how much "heart" and "desire" it takes to succeed in this industry. I know it takes heart and desire and I can assure you that I have a great deal of it. If I didn't, I'd agree with you.

I've posted many times on the subject of cg schools and it never fails that we will see some self-proclaimed martyr preaching about how it takes "heart" and "desire" to be a good artist and no amount of schooling in the world can change that. I agree, but don't use this issue as a safety crutch to whip out at a moments notice and bash anyone who complains about school.

I have lots complaints about school, who doesn't, but that doesnt mean I didn't work my ass off to do the very best work Im capable of.
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  10 October 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jackdeth
And to Poly.....I teach my employees at my company. I did do some teaching at DHIMA in Santa Monica years ago. The best way to learn is in the kitchen while under the flames.....


My...I do love this banter Must have someth'n to do with it being 3 a.m.

I'm actually 100% with you on there being little in comparison to being tossed to the sharks, under the flames....etc etc...(working in the industry). You have no idea how much I look forward to it! I still don't really understand why school is such a horrible thing. I'm going into the industry one way or the other, so why, if I know that it is a personal gain for me, is school such a bad idea? I don't see how it logically does more harm than good. Is it because you have to "unlearn" those bad habits you mentioned? Are you experiencing this with people being introduced to your work and this is why you are unloading? I'm really curious.

I've had a really rough time forcing myself through school, initially the only way I could see it was just as a security blanket..."just in case" it mattered somewhere along the way. Now that I'm finishing, I realize that I got a lot more out of all this than I ever expected. However, I'm very glad to be done with it and very eager to move on, but I'm seriously considering now what I should look out for as to how I might have been negatively affected by my education.
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-poly
 
  10 October 2003
Quote: Originally posted by zzacmann
it never fails that we will see some self-proclaimed martyr preaching about how it takes "heart" and "desire" to be a good artist and no amount of schooling in the world can change that. I


lol. who's the matyr and what are they selling this time. Talk about funny way of putting it. This thread is going down the flamey corridor as is. It's pretty apparent Jackdeth think education is a load of hot dog shit and can't/won't be swayed. Oh well, I guess it who can get a job at the end of the day.

/bleeds from paper cut.

* ps if students don't know anything when they leave; according to JD, how then the awesome work from Ringling and VFS? I guess it just happened.
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  10 October 2003
Hi Jackdeth, u said and i quote
Quote: The reality is that most people don't even realize how lame thier schools were until it is too late.


no offense but usually people who thinks their school is lame are the ones who expected to be spoonfed. Just as people who learn by themselves can succeed (like yourself) without going to a "lame school", so can those who go to a "lame school" succeed without going to an "awesome school" like Gnomon for example.

im not saying im getting a "production experience" from school but i am learning how to work together with my classmates as a team and i think that's pretty important, don't you think so? there are other advantages that i pointed out in my previous post, feel free to dispute them

maybe u see that as being spoonfed, but the thing is, it's still up to the students to make the effort and take advantage of wat the school is offering no matter how "lame" it is.

saying "99% of all of their skills came from after school" is really quite off the marks too i think, is their school really that good that they can get a job just with that 1%??

after i told a few 3D artists i know that im going to school, their reaction was "wow u're going pro now?". from that i came to a conclusion that by going to school, im showing people (and hopefully my future employer) that i am dedicated to the study of CG. that may not mean much, but i'll take whatever advantage i can get to get into this industry.

if i could make it by self-study like you i would be very proud indeed, but im not ashamed of being "spoonfed" by going to school

im not knocking self-study at face value coz i did that prior to school but as i mentioned, i believe school can get me there faster so i invest in it.
 
  10 October 2003
is it just me or are the "spoon feeding" schools the lame ones? If anyone's backing up going to school based on that they ARE having their hand held, hmmm....I don't believe I've seen too many responses of the sort, nevermind Doesn't matter, what we have agreed on is that you get out of it what you put into it. Every school is at least somewhat different, some DRASTICALLY, just like every job. You should be learning on your own regardless of any and all schools you may go to. If you feel you haven't learned anything in school, you have been spoon-fed, you aren't pushing yourself enough. I say this from experience. I say stay in school, but continue to educate yourself as if you weren't. If you have the opportunity, go elsewhere. Why is this so controversial?
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-poly
 
  10 October 2003
*crawls out of his cubbyhole*

Ahem.

I'm currently in my second year of University, studying animation. Prior to coming to school, I was learning on my own for six years. I've discovered, in my time here, that I know the tools infinitely better than any of my peers (including those in the program). Students sometimes come to me for answers to questions about the programs and how to achieve various things.

Do I think school is going to make me a better animator/modeler/CG artist? Yes and no.

You see, at my school (Northeastern University), the guy who runs the animation program understands the idea that CG art work (specifically animation, in our case) is a lifestyle more than a career. You need to be ready to put in real time and real effort to get good results. He drives that point home over and over and over with his assignments. We have a new animation project due each week, as well as the storyboard of the project that we'll be turning in next week. Resting is not an option (what do you think I'm up doing right now? ).

I didn't come to school expecting to be spoonfed. I didn't come to school expecting someone to teach me how to be a CG artist. I started down that path when I first picked up a demo of trueSpace3 (or was it 2?) many years ago and started dabbling. But I look around at my classmates, and I see that they don't have the work ethic -- yet.

That brings me to my ultimate point. For those of us that already know we have within us the potential to get by in this field, school gives us a playground wherein we can cultivate our skills amongst peers and instructors and find new avenues we might not have considered, while refining our craft and our eye for the artwork (here at NU, animation is one of the ART programs, not an architecture or computer program -- the entire first year is spent doing traditional artwork, rather than dealing with computers at all). For those that do not fully understand what it means to be a CG artist, this is where they can find out. If they can't get the work done and the projects in on time, meeting our professor's very high expectations, then they sure as hell won't make it out there in the field. This is their freebie chance to realize that they might not be doing the right thing and change their minds before they start down an inexorable path that they may later find difficult to escape.

So, in closing, school can be, for some, a potentially vital opportunity to explore whether or not CG is really right for them, if the teaching in environment is right (and I feel that NU's teaching environment is perfect for this sort of thing). For me, it's a good bit of time to test myself and hone my skills for a few more years before diving headfirst into the workplace.

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Last edited by McC : 10 October 2003 at 03:23 PM.
 
  10 October 2003
Also, to clear up a few points. I don't hate 3d schools. I did say in my first post that they can be very good for some people. Hell, my wife, who is our top artist at my company now, came from a 3d school as did our entire modeling staff.

School is a good place to get a base knowledge, but not for highend production skills. Three weeks in any FX company with TDs and supervisors that like to pass on knowldege will equal years of education in schools. But again, that isn't a knock at schools, but the reality of being in a production enviroment.

I have found in my experience the people with best problem solver abilites, the most well rounded feature knowledge, and hardest drive don't are the ones who learned the hard way at home. Its a different mindset.

The point that most of you bring up about having people to ask/answer questions around you is also the weakest point. People get used to always having someone else helping them, which isn't always true in the production world.
 
  10 October 2003
Quote: Originally posted by Jackdeth
School is a good place to get a base knowledge, but not for highend production skills. Three weeks in any FX company with TDs and supervisors that like to pass on knowldege will equal years of education in schools.


So are you saying you are willing to hire on all these people who haven't gone to school and teach them? Under the flame so to speak?
That is very generous!!! When do I start!!!?

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  10 October 2003
I think it's better to study something less specialized, and then specialize later.
I want to study architecture at university with the ambition of getting into architectural visualization, and through that eventually animation or other specialized fields within cg..

I have noticed that many people start off doing general design/art subjects and then are led into 3d through their experience..

what do you think?

Last edited by Troy : 10 October 2003 at 06:36 PM.
 
  10 October 2003
slurry ,

if u have a good demo reel , im sure he would.

Art School is useless for people in this field that have no talent. Art center lets mostly anyone in , who can pay.


Ive seen dozens of reels from guys fresh out of artschool. And they arent that great.

There is a cockiness that comes with coming out of school , you think somehow that the CG industry OWES you a job , where you start your first year out making 50k or whatever , just because you wasted your $$$ at a school.

I think the CG industry is unique in letting people without degrees get to high places. Having a Degree on your resume is hardly even recognized , all we do is pop in the tape and use the resume for contact information.

But it is always *good* to have a degree(in a REAL field , not CG) , i just think its a luxury item more than needed, FOR the CG industry.

Just a note to all the school fish out there , Bust your ass and make a kickass reel. Dont let some Second hand teacher try to sell you their outdated trades and tricks. Use school for an outlet of your own creativity , maybe you cant afford said 3d package , or renderfarm. Just dont waste your time. Learn the basics.

-Will
 
  10 October 2003
Quote: Originally posted by WillJohn
But it is always *good* to have a degree(in a REAL field , not CG)


Oh, so CG isn't a "real" field?
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