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Old 03-12-2010, 09:36 AM   #1
rayman22201
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Unhappy School Dillemma

Hey everyone,
I, like every student in this forum, lol, want to become a 3D artist, but I have been having a serious dilemma about how I should continue my education. Since CG talk is probably the most professional CG forum on the web, I figured you guys would be a great community to ask for some advice.
*Possible long life story style post warning, sorry *

So here is my situation, I live in Las Vegas, NV. Yes, the Las Vegas, no we don't all live in hotels lol. I had originally wanted to be a computer engineer, and went to a vocational high school for computer programming. Then about half way through decided I like art, and I love movies lol.

So what I did when I got to college was go to UNLV (University of Nevada Las Vegas) for a B.A. in Computer Science, and simultaneously go to the community college for an A.A. in 3D animation, as well as just taking as many art classes at the community college as I could lol. I figured that by being a programmer I would at least have a backup career, and programming is a very good skill to have in the Animation industry anyway, since our tool is a computer. It seems there is as much demand for programmers and Technical Directors as there are for Animators. The only thing about that is that, while I am pretty good at programming, I don't have the passion for it like I do the artistic side of things.

Also important to note is that through federal grants and local scholarships, by staying in Nevada, my college education is completely free. I actually get paid to go to school because of extra scholarship money.

This sounds all great, so what's the problem? First, the education system in Nevada sucks. It is pretty horrible on many levels, and to top that off our state has decided to implement massive budget cuts...something to the tune of 9 million dollars being taken away from the college, and it is supposed to get worse next year.
On the community college level, they are cutting the 3D animation program completely. I am one class short of the animation degree, and I am going to have to jump through a bunch of hoops to even get the damn degree.

Then there is the fact that while I know I have been steadily improving my skills, I really don't have much of a portfolio, which more and more I have come to realize is what really matters. All of this has made me wonder if perhaps I should bite the bullet, get huge loans, and go to an expensive art school.
I figure there are 3 things that an art school will give me:
1.) Experienced Teachers -- It is nice to be able to ask a professional questions face to face and have that interaction...

2.) Time -- A good Animation school will force you to spend lots of time perfecting your portfolio. That is the real key to getting good and getting hired, time and practice.

3.)Industry Connections -- It obviously helps you if your school has recruiters from ILM or Pixar coming every other semester, and a good art school will help get you a good reputation and lots of networking opportunities.

But all of that is at an extremely high cost, so here are my alternatives and rebuttals to those 3 key features:
1.) Experienced Teachers -- While it is nice to be able to actually talk to a pro, the internet has done a very good job of closing that gap. Places like CG talk can be just as helpful if used properly. While not ideal, this makes the internet a close second to actually talking to a professional.

2.)Time -- I already find it very hard managing time between getting a Computer Science degree, getting an Animation Degree, and working a part time job. It is very difficult to manage all these things. Of course, soon I will be done with the Animation degree, but at that point I will be left on my own to build a portfolio with no direct help per se. It will be all on me, and it will require A LOT of discipline. I am worried about whether I can push myself without a school or employer. At the same time I love doing art and CG, and can easily spend hours tinkering with the software and reading/watching tutorials. I get worried though because often times I will actually not do any 3D because I get so behind on my Computer Science studies that I feel I have to finish all of that before I allow myself to work on any 3D stuff.

3.)Industry Connections -- That is the one thing I believe that the art school could give me that would be much harder to get on my own. CG society/CG talk is good, but the case of networking, person to person contact is almost essential. First impressions can go a long way toward getting a job or internship.

In a nutshell, I can either stay in Nevada, get a free but spotty college education, and dedicate myself to building my portfolio on my own, or I can spend lots of money, get a more focused education, and be forced into building my portfolio. The other aspect is that a Computer Science degree is very broad, and I can fall back on that if I can't get a job in Animation or VFX right away. If I get an arts education, I get no 'safety net' so to speak, and I either have to make it or eat huge loans and die lol...

I guess my final questions are these:
First, should I stay in Nevada or leave, obviously?
I am amazed by the work that some of these schools put out, but at the same time I find people like Tyson Ibele, who create AMAZING work, have great jobs in the industry, and are entirely self taught.

Secondly, My animation teacher at the community college is very jaded, and has a horrible opinion of Nevada's education system. He has said that he wouldn't hire anyone who had a degree from here for anything. That worried me a lot. That makes me wonder if a Computer Science degree from UNLV is even worth it.
So my second question is, assuming I have a decent portfolio( assume at the very least the portfolio is decent, as a worst case scenario), how would the fact that I have a B.A. in Computer Science from UNLV affect how you as an employer would view me as a candidate for a job / internship?
Would the fact that I got my degree from Nevada put me in a negative light?

Sorry for the really long post.
Thank you all so much for any advice you can give me,
Ray
 
Old 03-12-2010, 11:47 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayman22201
Would the fact that I got my degree from Nevada put me in a negative light?


No, because no-one cares about degrees anyway.

Long question, very short answer.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:30 PM   #3
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Finish your BA in Computer Science. No one will care about where you got it from, but the fact that you have one will give you a leg up on your competition.

Unless you are interested in becoming a character animator or a concept artist, your technical background will definitely be helpful. Just take a look at any job listings at any of the major studios for example, most will list as a requirement or as helpful a BS/BA in Computer Science or equivalent.

Concentrations such as Massive, effects, modeling, lighting, shading, rigging can be very technical and you will find many of the top leads also come from a technical background. Also with your degree you will can also pursue the path as a render I/O or render wrangler and work your way up. The demo reel requirements for a render wrangler are not as high nor competitive say, if you want to jump right into a modeling or effects position, but will also give you a chance to work on your reel while working among the professionals working the positions you will be interested in.

Take some graphics programming courses if your school offers them. Learn python scripting and MEL and renderman. Integrating your artistic skills with your technical skills will put you pretty far ahead of the pack. Just make sure your artistic skills are fairly good.. if not, then make sure you excel at the technical side.
 
Old 03-12-2010, 12:42 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forsakendreams
Unless you are interested in becoming a character animator or a concept artist, your technical background will definitely be helpful. Just take a look at any job listings at any of the major studios for example, most will list as a requirement or as helpful a BS/BA in Computer Science or equivalent.


This is simply not true. In 99.9999999999999999999999% of studios, the only jobs where a comp science degree is likely to be mentioned at all are in technical positions like some of the more complex TD roles, or the R&D side of the studio. I am not saying the degree won't be helpful in many other circumstances, but the point is that the studio won't care, which is what the original poster is concerned about.
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Old 03-12-2010, 08:04 PM   #5
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Well, unless you're talking about jobs in the art departments - i.e. sculpture, matte paint, production design, concept art, etc.. maybe half of the 3D production pipeline is comprised of technical directors. Work that encompasses modeling, creature, rigging, skinning, muscles, shading, lighting, effects, massive, rendering, finaling, pipeline support, and shot setup.
There are some departments that may straddle both, such as texture/matte painting or layout. Tracking, roto and compositing - yes, those are somewhat different beasts. A background in film or art would be more useful for layout and compositing.

For the R&D side of the studio one had better be looking at getting a Masters or PhD to have a serious shot in that area.

What the technical degree will give you is staying power. A studio would much rather hire on staff an artist who can not only model during production, but also code to improve the pipeline, fix production problems, develop new procedrual modeling techniques that save both time and money. While the rest of the freelancers get hired and fired en masse following project cycles, those with both the technical and artistic chops will be the ones staying around full time. Larger studios often look for longer term prospects in their employees, and with the huge numbers of applicants for limited openings, a background in both technical and artistic sides will put you at the head of the pack.

I think what the poster was concerned about was whether not getting a degree from NV would reflect negatively - the answer is no. And the 2nd question on how a employer would view a degree in Computer Science combined with "a decent portfolio" - the answer is, that can only be a plus to the employer.
 
Old 03-12-2010, 08:10 PM   #6
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As previously stated, I'd say stick with the degree. It can be helpful to have those skills once you're in the industry, and like you mentioned..have a backup plan.

And it doesn't matter where you went to school, I've actually never been asked going on 6 years now.

Good luck!
 
Old 03-13-2010, 01:49 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forsakendreams
Well, unless you're talking about jobs in the art departments - i.e. sculpture, matte paint, production design, concept art, etc.. maybe half of the 3D production pipeline is comprised of technical directors.


Ermm... no, I disagree with that. While many people refer to themselves as TDs, the ones that actually do stuff like writing tools and whatnot are in the minority. I've been credited as a TD before when all I've done is write a few basic MEL scripts, set up some shaders and do some lighting. And I don't have any comp science qualifications (the point is that even though I was labeled as TD, my job was not really technical at all, and indeed nor are many jobs where people call themselves TDs).

Quote:
Work that encompasses modeling, creature, rigging, skinning, muscles, shading, lighting, effects, massive, rendering, finaling, pipeline support, and shot setup.


Modelling, (not sure what you mean by "creature"), shading (ie lookdev), lighting, effects, and finaling all fall under the creative side of things, and do not require comp science qualifications.

Quote:
There are some departments that may straddle both, such as texture/matte painting or layout.


Nope, sorry I disagree again. These are not technical roles.

Quote:
For the R&D side of the studio one had better be looking at getting a Masters or PhD to have a serious shot in that area.


Not necessarily a PhD, but here a technical background does help, yes. And in some cases, it may be required.

Quote:
What the technical degree will give you is staying power. A studio would much rather hire on staff an artist who can not only model during production, but also code to improve the pipeline, fix production problems, develop new procedrual modeling techniques that save both time and money.


Not necessarily. Also, there are very, very, very, very few people that fit this description anyway. I could count on my one hand the number of people I've encountered like this over the years, who are actually good at all these things.

Quote:
While the rest of the freelancers get hired and fired en masse following project cycles, those with both the technical and artistic chops will be the ones staying around full time.


Sorry, but this is simply not necessarily true at all. I'd be curious to hear what studios you've experienced this at, as every studio I've worked at has kept only a small number of people around full time, the vast majority of which have been highly specialised artists in senior, lead or HoD roles. Since you're posting with an anonymous account, it's impossible for me to see where you're coming from with this, so please feel free to fill me in - I'd be curious to hear which studios you've experienced this in. There's a lot more than a person's various skills that come into play when studios are deciding whose contracts they're not going to be renewing - what you're saying is a gross over-simplification of this, and disregards all the other factors.

Quote:
I think what the poster was concerned about was whether not getting a degree from NV would reflect negatively - the answer is no.


At least we can agree on this.

Quote:
And the 2nd question on how a employer would view a degree in Computer Science combined with "a decent portfolio" - the answer is, that can only be a plus to the employer.


Again, and this is a fact, most employers do not care whether their artists have degrees or not. They really, really, really do not. In ten years of working in various VFX studios around the world not once has anyone ever asked me if I have a degree. Not once.

I am NOT saying that degrees are pointless, however. I just totally and utterly disagree with your comment saying "most will list as a requirement or as helpful a BS/BA in Computer Science or equivalent" because this is simply not true. Go on - spend half an hour or so looking at the recruitment pages for artists at various studios, and count how many mention any degrees. I just spent a few minutes on ILM and Digital Domain's sites, and none of the random positions I looked at said anything about any degrees of any sort.
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
I am NOT saying that degrees are pointless, however. I just totally and utterly disagree with your comment saying "most will list as a requirement or as helpful a BS/BA in Computer Science or equivalent" because this is simply not true. Go on - spend half an hour or so looking at the recruitment pages for artists at various studios, and count how many mention any degrees. I just spent a few minutes on ILM and Digital Domain's sites, and none of the random positions I looked at said anything about any degrees of any sort.

Not to pick apart your words, but I was looking at a bunch of the ILM/lucas listings and for the handful of technical positions I looked at they all listed a BA requirement in comp sci or equivalent. This was for the technical assistant/lighting TD type roles that I was looking through. For the pipeline supervisor, they listed this specifically "Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or Computer Graphics required. Master's level preferred"

Although in regards to the strictly 2d/3d artist jobs, they listed no schooling requirements, so you're right there. Again, not to pick apart what you said as you have infinity more experience than me, I was just curious myself.
 
Old 03-14-2010, 12:47 AM   #9
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Please read my post more carefully. I am specifically talking about the non-technical roles. I am talking about "artist" roles.
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Old 03-14-2010, 01:11 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Please read my post more carefully. I am specifically talking about the non-technical roles. I am talking about "artist" roles.


My bad, I didn't see that you were referring to artist roles specifically. To the OP: since you are quite close to finishing a BA in computer science, that would lead me to think that you might as well finish it up, as not only can your technical skills pay off in a variety of roles, but that little slip of paper might just mean something after all for some positions. As far as the further schooling that I'm sure you're more concerned about, the general consensus seems to be that you can do everything you need to succeed on your own if you have the drive and determination, especially if you already have a BA. If you don't think that is the route for you and you'd rather take out loans to go to a nice art school, I'm sure it will be a good experience and you wont regret it if you dedicate yourself.
 
Old 03-14-2010, 03:02 AM   #11
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Thank you all for your replies.
Both of Leigh's and forsakendreams posts were very helpful (Edit: and WeezTheJuice) . I didn't mean to start a huge debate lol, but I appreciate the depth that you both gave in your responses. You gave me a lot to think about lol. I grew up with a lot of very degree centric expectations, so to realize that I want to go into a profession that doesn't care about degrees is kind of a culture shock lol.

I have decided to stay and get the CS degree, because a.) it doesn't matter anyway and it sure can't hurt my chances lol. And of course it makes a good backup plan. At least I could be working at the studio as a render monkey or something. It's better than not working at a studio at all lol.
b.)The degree is free with all my government aid. A free degree from a reputable college (even if it is spotty, it is reputable) is still a free degree. It just costs me my time.

The side effect of this decision is that I realize that I need to work my butt off to build a portfolio and build up my artistic and animation skills. My friend who goes to SCAD says he works 30 hours a week on his portfolio projects, so I probably need to work at least that much. I hope I have the self discipline to do it, but I am going for it lol.

Thanks again everyone for their input, I really appreciate it,
Ray

Last edited by rayman22201 : 03-14-2010 at 03:04 AM.
 
Old 03-15-2010, 02:30 AM   #12
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The line between technical and artistic can be very blurred in the industry. TD positions are more often both artistic and technical. Glancing through all the ILM listings, about half of the production positions are TD related and the other half not mentioning anything about CompSci or Math.

"Creature" I believe is a area at ILM that deals with organic/creature modeling and rigging.

Yes, the industry doesn't usually care about whether you have a degree, but all demo reels being equal, having a Math/CS/Graphics degree is still a definite plus.

I'm not here argue line by line though. I'm only suggesting that OP's completion of his degree would provide more entry points into the industry and open up a broader area for him to be competitive in. My experience has only been with studios that use proprietary software on archaic pipelines, and perhaps for that reason many of the full time staff tend to be both strongly technical and artistic in skill.

I find it tiring that the same "don't need a degree for the industry" maxim is continuously trotted out though. No, you don't a need a degree, and no a a degree will not guarantee you a decent skillset, but schooling sure makes it a bit easier to obtain access to quality instructors and opportunities if you look in the right places. FWIW, everyone I've ever known in the industry has a degree, and suprisingly, often an advanced post undergrad one at that.
 
Old 03-15-2010, 12:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forsakendreams
I find it tiring that the same "don't need a degree for the industry" maxim is continuously trotted out though. No, you don't a need a degree, and no a a degree will not guarantee you a decent skillset, but schooling sure makes it a bit easier to obtain access to quality instructors and opportunities if you look in the right places. FWIW, everyone I've ever known in the industry has a degree, and suprisingly, often an advanced post undergrad one at that.


About a third to maybe half the people I've worked with over the course of my career have had degrees, not all of which have been related to our field though. I've always gone to great lengths to remind people that education is never a bad thing (in fact, I'm a huge supporter of studying art), but it is a fact that you don't need a degree to work as an artist in this field. I don't see why mentioning this should upset you in any way, because it's an undeniable fact about this industry, because it's your reel that gets you work. And I absolutely disagree that having a degree necessarily pips you over other candidates - if two people have equally good quality reels, the studio is not going to simply make their decision based on whether one of them has a degree or not. There are numerous other factors likely to be considered first.

I find it interesting that you're still declining to mention where you've worked. You say "everyone I've ever known in this industry has a degree" - but who have you worked with, at what places, and for how long? Providing more information here will put your views into a better context. Your profile says you're a student - are you really a student? If so, how can you post with such apparent authority on this industry, if, by all appearances, you're yet to work in it yourself? Something, however, tells me that you're not a student, so why not mention some of your background? And please don't misunderstand my intention here - I am not trying to have a go at you, I just think that if you're going to debate this, then you should provide some context, because I'm really open about where I am coming from with my views.
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Old 03-16-2010, 10:32 AM   #14
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My 2cents

Hello Ray, I thought to drop in just to give my thoughts on the subject.

First of I would like to say that coming from an educational background myself, I will try to give my most truthful point of view.
What Leigh said about the industry is very true, especially for any art related positions. This comes from a person who owns a masters degree in 3d animation and was assistant professor for 2 years, before getting an industry job.

From my small experience and views from many students, art related education is a double-edge sword.
What I mean by this:
In regard to what you said about the creative drive you need to complete a very good portfolio to give you a fighting chance in the industry, it's true that self-discipline is very important and not many people find it easy to cope with. BUT this is something you will need in your entire career and especially when studying in an art school.

I will answer to your question about studying to an art school with some questions:

1. Do you feel that with the current skills you have, you can create a portfolio that can come close (not rival) the work seen from schools like VFS, ThinkTank or CalArts?

2. Where are your strongest points? (Modeling-Animation e.t.c) Are they mastered enough to enable you to work in the specific industry you are looking for?

3. Is your talent and hard work enough to enable you to stand out of the bunch?

If you know the answer to the above you do not need a degree. What an Art School will give you is expert opinion, driving force and a community of fellow students that you will find invaluable through your career. The friendships you will develop there will last forever and will push you even further than you have imagined. Industry connections are a plus.

On the other side, Money of course is a big issue and trust me, I'm still paying my loans after 5 years in the industry. But my decision to study animation came from my desire to learn more and become better in my craft. NOT ONCE, was I ever asked of my degree to get a job. The title is not important, but what is important, is the work ethic and all the creative feedback you are going to get from your school, especially if you are not much of a creative person.

I'd say finish your Computer Science course, not for your degree but because you never know where your knowledge can be applied during your career.

It's a big sacrifice and you need to consider all things before taking your decision but eventually I'd say if you are willing to work hard you can make it either way around. Internet is a big place if you can't afford going to an art school, take an on-line course. Gnomon / Animation Mentor give degrees and enable you to study from the internet. It's a much cheaper alternative and you get a nice verification that is respected in the industry. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY YOU GET TO CREATE A STRONG PORTFOLIO.

I hope I was helpful and wish you all the best for the future.

Cheers
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Last edited by JuGGerNauTT : 03-16-2010 at 10:37 AM.
 
Old 03-17-2010, 08:56 AM   #15
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These are very good questions for me to ponder. My first reaction answers are:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuGGerNauTT
1. Do you feel that with the current skills you have, you can create a portfolio that can come close (not rival) the work seen from schools like VFS, ThinkTank or CalArts?


Hell no, but I think I am close. I am at a point where I think I can start putting together some ok quality stuff, but I just need to practice and become more proficient. I feel I am at a point where I just need to shut up and start working lol.
Though, I have trouble coming with good stories/scenes to make. I guess I should start doing challenges or something for inspiration.

Unfortunately, time seems constantly against me, and I am very annoyed with homework from my Computer Science courses right now... I feel like I am spending all my time either doing calculus or writing papers...But that is only temporary. I need to learn how to not sleep anyway lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuGGerNauTT
2. Where are your strongest points? (Modeling-Animation e.t.c) Are they mastered enough to enable you to work in the specific industry you are looking for?


This is the hardest question you could have asked me. I am really not sure. I feel passionate about a lot of aspects of the process. A lot of the things I have done on my own have not even been with 3d, but with composting, ironically. That is an area where I really shine. I have loved Adobe After Effects since I first started playing with it when I was 14, 6 years ago, lol.

I have always had an interest in procedural animation and particle systems, but I am enjoying character animation more and more as I have been learning it in my class at the community college, lol.
My biggest problem in this area is definitely a lack of focus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuGGerNauTT
3. Is your talent and hard work enough to enable you to stand out of the bunch?


I know my hard work is enough, but it is hard to judge my own talent. I think I have decent potential, and I know I have enough work ethic to carry me through, I just have to work, hope, and get lucky lol.

again, thanks for all the food for thought everybody,
Ray

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S.
Leigh, from a debate perspective, you have wiped the floor with forsakendreams, and you definitely have the credentials to back you up (I bow to your amazing work on Pans Labyrinth alone lol).
Like I said before though, my degree is free, so it's worth it to finish. It isn't worth it for me to go to an expensive art school though.
I just have to do like you said, work on my stuff and keep improving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
And for what it's worth, I have no degrees. I originally come from a shitty third world country where there were no decent CG courses. I'm 99% self-taught, I started working in the field six months after opening a 3D package for the first time, and I've worked at some of the top studios in the visual effects industry since then. I'm not saying it's easy, but if you're dedicated enough and you really push yourself, you can do anything you want. And the best part is that I never had to deal with any debt from any massively over-priced courses.
 
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