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Old 02-02-2010, 12:14 AM   #61
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IMO, getting 80k for a lousy service is quite an exploitation. TomorowsMemory, you could at least PM taxguy, or send him an e-mail with info about that institution (you're not breaking CGS policy that way...). After all, these are profit making companies, few people end up being quite rich, while some unfortunate (or misled others) probably have to work two jobs in order to pay a 80k credit...
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:29 AM   #62
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This article on the job situation in The Atlantic pretty well sums up the attitude I see in a lot of college students right now:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/2010...-america-future

Quoting from page 2: "Twenge notes that self-esteem in children began rising sharply around 1980, and hasn’t stopped since. By 1999, according to one survey, 91 percent of teens described themselves as responsible, 74 percent as physically attractive, and 79 percent as very intelligent. (More than 40 percent of teens also expected that they would be earning $75,000 a year or more by age 30; the median salary made by a 30-year-old was $27,000 that year.) Twenge attributes the shift to broad changes in parenting styles and teaching methods, in response to the growing belief that children should always feel good about themselves, no matter what. As the years have passed, efforts to boost self-esteem—and to decouple it from performance—have become widespread.

"These efforts have succeeded in making today’s youth more confident and individualistic. But that may not benefit them in adulthood, particularly in this economic environment. Twenge writes that “self-esteem without basis encourages laziness rather than hard work,” and that “the ability to persevere and keep going” is “a much better predictor of life outcomes than self-esteem.” She worries that many young people might be inclined to simply give up in this job market. “You’d think if people are more individualistic, they’d be more independent,” she told me. “But it’s not really true. There’s an element of entitlement—they expect people to figure things out for them.”


If you look at people attending an expensive school (usually at their parent's expense) to get trained for a career they think will be cool and glamorous and fun, you get a generous helping of the kids whose heads are stuck in the clouds. This isn't entirely the schools' fault.

-jeremy
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:13 AM   #63
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Incredible to see a viewpoint from the other side, which in my opinion is the far more accurate summation. Are there horrible CG programs? Of course. But grouping all of them together and saying they 'don't work' or 'it's their fault' I don't have a job', is ludicrous. Or that 'you must go to one of the big name /insanely expensive schools to get an education/job' crap. That big name guarantees nothing. The article reminds me of this famous list (though it wasn't by Bill Gates as many people thought). It's a must read in my opinion. Odds are if a good amount of students have made a program a successful venture, then the tools are there for achievement . In just my brief ten years of teaching CG, I feel that today's student has changed and wants more and more done for them. This isn't all students, but a good amount. Going to school, should be really for exponentially increasing your learning time line. If it isn't doing that, then you can always try another school or go it alone.
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Old 02-11-2010, 05:48 PM   #64
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Students may have higher expectations of themselves....but

Yes students may have higher expectations and an inflated image of their abilities;however, it is still no excuse for any school or professor to unfairly grade a student. This includes giving overly low, undeserved grades or overaly high, underserved grades. Frankly, I think students are paying for competant instruction, up-to-date curriculum, decent facilities and MOST IMPORTANTLY, academic honesty.

I would be appalled if I found out a school or professor overly praised an underving kid and wasn't honest with his or her students. If I were the student who was improperly stroked in order for the school to get more money out of me, I would sue both the school and all professors who participated in this behavior. It is completely unacceptable.

In fact, unfairly praising students in order to get them to keep paying money at the school is so intolerable that if a school had a policy of this behavior, I would encourage a class action suit in order to close them down.

Last edited by taxguy : 02-11-2010 at 05:55 PM.
 
Old 02-11-2010, 06:08 PM   #65
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welcome to the real world, its like that in almost all fields , the thing is , its up to the student , and yes i agree most schools are a scham , but theres been lots of info about this and if kids still prefer to go to them either : they dont do their research or they dont give a ****.
And agree about the inflated sense of self , i know lots of artists that came out of school and are unemployed , but just because they went to school and have huge debt they think they "deserve" a job, and instead of working on their art ( wich 90% is plain not industry standard ) they decide to spam emails instead of working like everyone else.
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Old 02-11-2010, 08:35 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taxguy
Yes students may have higher expectations and an inflated image of their abilities;however, it is still no excuse for any school or professor to unfairly grade a student. This includes giving overly low, undeserved grades or overaly high, underserved grades. Frankly, I think students are paying for competant instruction, up-to-date curriculum, decent facilities and MOST IMPORTANTLY, academic honesty.

I wish you 200 students.

Learn to draw first though.
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:43 PM   #67
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I have had 200 students in a class

Actually , I have had close to 200 students in one class. I didn't like that high a class population that I had to teach. However, I did try to grade all of them fairly.
 
Old 02-11-2010, 10:05 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taxguy
Actually , I have had close to 200 students in one class. I didn't like that high a class population that I had to teach. However, I did try to grade all of them fairly.

What do you teach, parent complaints? Your folio is empty dude.
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Old 02-12-2010, 04:21 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taxguy
Frankly, I think students are paying for competant instruction, up-to-date curriculum, decent facilities and MOST IMPORTANTLY, academic honesty.

Going to school is just like buying a house, getting married, or any other big decision you make in life. Listing the things you'd hope people get doesn't help much. It's up to you to choose carefully.

The good news is, there's no reason to stay in a bad school. It's not like buying the wrong house or marrying the wrong person. You can just transfer out. When I hear that someone wasted tens of thousands of dollars and years of work on a bad school (or on any school that wasn't right for them), I wonder why they didn't move more quickly.

There's no pride in sticking with something, if it isn't the right thing.

-jeremy
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Old 02-12-2010, 07:08 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremybirn

*Going to school is just like buying a house, getting married, or any other big decision you make in life. Listing the things you'd hope people get doesn't help much. It's up to you to choose carefully.

*The good news is, there's no reason to stay in a bad school.
*There's no pride in sticking with something, if it isn't the right thing.

-jeremy


Interesting...but then we have mods jumping on people for wanting to know WHICH schools had the crappy programs. How are those people supposed to get an honest answer here? Are they just supposed to drop a new house worth of cash on a school that is a diploma mill because the mods here don't want heat from their masters?

I mean, really, you're telling these people to shut up about their experiences at certain schools- to what end? This doesn't look to be a very helpful community if you're telling your members to just pay their 80 grand and shut up now that they wasted years of their lives and are still unemployable.

Am I missing something here? How are they supposed to "choose carefully" if they aren't allowed to compare the various schools and rate them? Sounds fishy...

I remember it had to be last year sometime I contacted one of the schools which are now NOT TO BE MENTIONED [ IF and only IF it's not a glowing praise, that is.. ]and told them I was looking at them because they were one of the very few that the CGTalk forum didn't trash, and they actually got a kick out of that. I was able to disregard the CRAP schools because of experiences related by current students and/or alumni here in the forum, but apparently now that is a NO-NO because I guess all that truth rankled some empty suit and impacted enrollment due to bad word-of-mouth which was DESERVED.

All you kids who think this is about creatiity and art better wake up and wake up quick to the cold reality that it is a BUSINESS, and like a business it strives to survive and expand itself even at your expense. So, you will be straddled with sub-par instructors and taught the rudiments for $60,000-$100,000+ in student loans and churn out a god-awful portfolio which your teachers will say is wonderful, of course, only to get out into the world with severely lacking credentials, work which brands you as unhirable at any even half-baked studi0, and a degree or cert that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

My investigation into the arena of 3d education really opened my eyes and thankfully did it quick...quick as in it totally stopped me from sinking a dime into any of the schools because of what I read here at CGTalk and elsewhere. I wasn't scared off because of the low % of people who actually make it into the industry. Neither was I scared off because of some of the more ridiculous portfolio requirements. I could have overcome ALL of those, but what really made me realize that unless you're lucky or you happen to be some gifted prodigy who is doing pro-quality work already with no formal training, you really have no business taking out massive loans just to see if you have what it takes to cut it. None of the PROs here are going to help you pay your loans back, so take their advice regarding jumping in and just KNOWING you've got it with a shaker full of salt. Sure, THEY got it, but you aren't them. Think I'm exaggerating? Go look at the portfolios of some people here: a lot of them are good enough to be employed by studios yet they are unemployed, and so if they aren't getting work, and you're not at least as talented as they are, you have to ask yourself what in gods name you're doing and seriously reasses your goals.

My horror-movie moment regarding the "industry" and 3d schools was when I read about a guy here who was tens of thousands of dollars in debt (think UPPER TENS), unemployed for a year or two out of school already, and admitted he could have learned what he did THERE from watching instructional DVDs. Now, there's no escape for him- he's got it 6 ways to sunday every month until he pays it all off, and he's not working in any industry for any decent paycheck so he's looking at 20 years of misery. It's the equivalent of paying a mortgage on a house you NEVER EVEN GET TO MOVE INTO. If that doesn't scare the he ll out of you right now, just give it a while to sink in...and it will soon enough.

So, like I said, this ban on calling out lousy instructors and labeling bad schools and programs BY NAME is lame and I'm sure it has everything to do with some private emails between previously exposed institutions and the board ops and the business of PROMOTION over the truth. Let me say it, it's a BUSINESS.

No, I'm still not in the 3d industry and don't plan on it, so I don't care who doesn't like the truth of what I say. I totally expect no honest reply to this post- instead, I expect some tepid personal attacks, someone will tell me I'm not cut out for the "industry" because of my "attitude", that experiences at schools are ALL subjective (easy way of not having to admit who sucks), and that "anybody can be great" in this field if only they TRY hard...

Sod that.

I personally know employees of a couple of studios, some screenwriters, and a director, and every one of them said they knew where they wanted to be from early on, and they tried hard, but they disclosed the ONE THING people here conveniently and consistently (to the point that I know now for certain it's on purpose) leave out- that one thing being each and every one had a natural talent in that thing they wanted to do. The guys at the studios were natural artists, the screenwriters all were natural story tellers with vocabularies twice that of the average person, and the director just had 'the eye' to imagine a shot in a way far superior to the next guy (M. Night Shyamalan, as a case in point, was offered a MILLION DOLLARS to unattach himself (they wanted a different director) from his SIXTH SENSE script but he turned it down because he knew only HIS eye could translate his vision into what he wanted US to see. THAT is the level of confidence in your talent you need to be great, and if you don't have it, even in the far lesser paying world of 3d graphics, you're wasting your money and years of your life in what I call "3Depression": the grim realization that you KNOW you're not good enough, but dammit you spent 80 grand to get your degree so it means you're a competent 3D artist...because your name is on that piece of paper...but for the life of you, you can't seem to turn that 80k worth of knowledge into even a $10/hr 3d modeling gig at the local sweatshop.

Well, if I've missed any salient points, be sure to let me know. lol.

Last edited by ShekemUrShekem : 02-12-2010 at 09:29 AM.
 
Old 02-12-2010, 10:11 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShekemUrShekem
So, like I said, this ban on calling out lousy instructors and labeling bad schools and programs BY NAME is lame and I'm sure it has everything to do with some private emails between previously exposed institutions and the board ops and the business of PROMOTION over the truth. Let me say it, it's a BUSINESS.


Nothing quite like a totally ridiculous conspiracy theory to ruin an otherwise decent post. Honestly, the crap you people come up with astounds me. As a site, we have absolutely zero affiliations with any schools. Do you see any ads here for schools that we've decided to "promote"? Oh right, thought not. So putting that bullshit to rest, and getting to the real fact of the matter: I believe you'll find libel is discouraged on any reputable website, this being no exception.

End of story.
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Old 02-12-2010, 11:39 AM   #72
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Talking duh

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Nothing quite like a totally ridiculous conspiracy theory to ruin an otherwise decent post. Honestly, the crap you people come up with astounds me. As a site, we have absolutely zero affiliations with any schools. Do you see any ads here for schools that we've decided to "promote"? Oh right, thought not. So putting that bullshit to rest, and getting to the real fact of the matter: I believe you'll find libel is discouraged on any reputable website, this being no exception.

End of story.


It's ONLY libel if it's not TRUE. So, what you're telling these people is that their assesment of a school or a person is libel if it's negative. To tell honestly that such and such school has a dreadful game design program because that's what your experience was when you went there, for example, according to you...is libel? Is that what TPTB told you to say in defense of said lame policy?

All those Mac users out there better start shutting up or face lawsuits for libel from Microsoft I guess. lol...right. The xbox vs. playstation wars are officially over because everybody got sued so they'd just shut up already. Somebody better go tell those students who rate their schools and teachers on websites they are in danger of being taken to civil court for their opinions and the facts lol. God, I hope you're not somebody in charge here.

FYI, this stopped being a decent post when your people told the member to shut up about being honest and told him nevermind knowing the names of the schools with the bad reps and instructors. That's no conspiracy...go read it yourself, or wait, maybe you're the guy that told him there's no negative reviews allowed. And yeah, maybe you're out of the loop or whatnot, but GNOMON has a freakin big AD right on the top of the page I'm looking at RIGHT NOW as I type this. Oh, wait, what's this?? Refresh the page and I get an AD for yet another SCHOOL -Full Sail - which of course you're NOT PROMOTING either. Please, man, just PLEASE...lol.

No wonder I only stop in here once every 6 mos. It just seems to get worse and worse.

Last edited by ShekemUrShekem : 02-12-2010 at 11:58 AM.
 
Old 02-12-2010, 12:50 PM   #73
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When I was in high school 3d schools didnt exist-and no school (except for fly by night acting or screenwriting workshops) gave you the impression that if you took their course you would be able to make a career out of it. 3D schools do tend to advertise as if they can guarantee a career. They treat it as if its vocational training-- jobs that are easy to get.


When I was in high school even the idea of pursuing art, comic books or special effects as a hobby was seen as being crazy. Especially in boring BC, but now this place is full of those "pursue your dream!" ads and schools.

And then there is luck. Doesn't matter how talented or confident or persistent you are,you are still at the mercy of luck. I know sometimes people will say: "there is no such thing as luck, I made my own luck."
But tell that to the person who watches for road signs and looks both ways before they cross the street and then some car veers off the road and hits them. If you dont believe in luck then it suggests it is always the pedestrian's fault for not having eyes in the back of their head. Of course luck exists. That's why there are expressions like "right place at the right time." Especially true in art related fields with lots of competition. Actors and writers deal with this all the time. You have to factor that in as well when thinking about going into debt for $80 000.The 3d schools don't talk about luck.

And those screenwriters and directors you meet may have also left out a few other factors in their success--like perhaps going to a school to hone their skills (going to a school next to the decision makers in Hollywood is far more advantageous than going to one in the Midwest), or moving to a place where there are such opportunities. Also nepotism is a factor-especially at the high creative level.

Here in BC we have a few prominent art schools obviously, and it prompted some ex-students to start a website devoted to them.
It is called artschoolreviews.ca I believe, it has been mentioned in threads on here. You can google it. They have reviews pro and con-- and they screen the reviews by making sure people provide ID that they are students. It isnt perfect however. They have a single glowing review for one school which I know received some very negative publicity in a big newspaper (an angry teacher kicked a classroom door in after his class gave him a petition complaining they werent learning enough--and he is still teaching there) but I cant find the article archived online.There's so much apathy here that people dont even share information online easily.

So you dont need to relie on this one site. And shouldnt.
But that cant stop you from having bad luck.Even if you personally interview ex-students they may for whatever reason give you a less than accurate assessment of the school.

When I applied for film school, I had to do all sorts of research pre-internet. Got books, newspaper clippings, etc. I applied for a school that seemed good for me but what i didnt know was they decided to phase out animation in the year I applied, they kept it listed in their calender but didnt bother to tell the students, and so I didnt find out until it was too late and money wasted.


BTW-on the Shyamalan thing--he isnt a good example of the virtues of being confident in your talents since I read that he had a public meltdown after a trusted studio friend gave him a critique of a script he wrote--he didnt listen to her and the movie he made bombed. Last I heard, funding for his latest movie came from foreign sources because of a negative reputation he had acquired in Hollywood.
 
Old 02-12-2010, 03:37 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShekemUrShekem
It's ONLY libel if it's not TRUE.


So you think we have nothing better to do here than sit around verifying if every comment or accusation that someone makes on this site is true or not? Think again. As a website, this is a minefield and as I said, any reputable website will take steps to indemnify themselves from this. Just as we don't allow users to flame and insult one another, we don't allow them to post insults and whatnot at any institutions. If people want to air their grievances, there are other, better avenues for them.

Quote:
To tell honestly that such and such school has a dreadful game design program because that's what your experience was when you went there, for example, according to you...is libel? Is that what TPTB told you to say in defense of said lame policy?


From our perspective, we're only hearing one side of the story and that does no-one any good. Hell, from my own experience, many people who bitch the most about courses were crap at the whole thing anyway and are playing the blaming game. I'll be damned if I am going to spend my time verifying people's claims. If our policies are so "lame", then I have a suggestion for you: don't come here any more.

Quote:
Oh, wait, what's this?? Refresh the page and I get an AD for yet another SCHOOL -Full Sail - which of course you're NOT PROMOTING either. Please, man, just PLEASE...lol.


I have ads switched off, so I have no idea what ads are running on this site. It's news to me that we have ads for schools here. Also, I am not a man. And lastly, I am not going to have a discussion with someone who can't even make an effort to speak in an intelligent and mature fashion.

Quote:
No wonder I only stop in here once every 6 mos. It just seems to get worse and worse.


Then stop coming. Wow, it's so easy.
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Old 02-12-2010, 03:41 PM   #75
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Leigh i thought youd get tired ot trying to incute "tact" to some members , not worthy and once again i agree with what you say
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