softimage 2013

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Old 04 April 2011   #61
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Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: When a thread goes on for 3 pages and all the contributions that seem to come in from a few members are nothing other than non-constructive whinging and defeatism, sarcastics one-liners, appeals to the right of bitching on the internet, I do take issue with the contents, and I will chime in to correct inaccuracies when I know for a fact what they are.

Have a nice day,
Raff


note taken. no posts anymore - I`m leaving for good. bye bye cgsociety...

p.s.: can anyone tell me how to delete my account?
 
Old 04 April 2011   #62
At no point I addressed you or your posts with my comment, but if you really feel the need, there's a forum for site support.
Internet drama is serious business. Anybody else wants to get something off their chest before we, hopefully, resume more productive discussions?
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Old 04 April 2011   #63
I think there has been some misunderstanding here.
No one is saying ICE is bad, personally i'm just saying that Softimage went from a 360 degrees software to a tech and specialized software, and this is kinda bad for the people who used the software at 360°, because now they dont get updates at 360°, but just in ICE.

Now you are pushing Softimage with ICE only not "caring" (please take this concept in a light way, its not my intention to insult AD or Soft staff at all) about the userbase who were used to work with Soft in all fields it provided, and the same people are the ones who have an hard time to learn ICE for many reasons.

Because ICE is not easy, because the tutorials around are not enough to justify the vast amount of time you need to invest to make stuff with ICE, things that arent really an instanced geometry or some random particles. That could be done before ICE and that is not really hard to make with ICE, i'm speaking about a real use of ICE.

To use really use ICE, please dont tell me that the tutorials that are around are enough because this is totally not true. Oh yes i'm speaking about a more "artist" mindset, not a TD mindset.

You can also find on xsimailing list, Autodesk staff that is aware about how people just dont understand ICE and the will to make more tutorials or help more, so again i dont think whats been discussed in those 3 pages is totally stupid/wrong/whining.

I think that ICE is good, but the complete lack of updates on the whole other part of the software is just bad in my opinion.
You could add a tiny bit of things here and there to please people who really cant get a grip with ICE, instead of fully update only ICE for 3 years.
This same discussion was made when ICE came out, when ICE kinematics came out, always the same answer, "i cant wait how many great compounds you guys are gonna share with community, i cant wait to see what you came up with IK/FK ICE animation!!!"
Well that didnt go well in my opinion, and here we go again.

Lets see how many months will take to have a decent sweep modifier made with ICE.

And to further get you an idea on how soft is going, i hope you guys know that Soft has a huge mental ray problem in 2012, as soon as your scene populates with geometry the render hangs worse and worse. Not referring about ICE scattering, or instances, i'm talking about geometry. Create a sphere, duplicate it 200 times and try to render.

Now when people reported this problem (like 1 hour after the release), with a bit of irony someone answered "no one uses Mental Ray anymore in beta testing".
So for a user that use in his work mental ray this is pretty depressing dont you think?
Fact that people in beta test use just arnold and 3delight is not an excuse to go out with such a huge bug that prevents the using of the main render.
Ok every software has bugs, but come on, this is something that it cant be overlooked, it means no one actually used mental ray with a normal scene once during beta, wich is absurd.
 
Old 04 April 2011   #64
ThE_JacO - I had hoped my littlle sarcasm would have been enough, but apparently not:
Your style of moderation, where you interpret, not bother to read the posts you comment on and point out other people's faults by naming them explicitly (and saying things like "you do this always") while you hardly ever once seem to look at the validity of your own claims, might be "very professional", but as you seem so hell-bent on insulting people only,
PLEASE DELETE MY ACCOUNT...

Last edited by Hirazi : 04 April 2011 at 02:42 PM.
 
Old 04 April 2011   #65
Quote: PLEASE DELETE MY ACCOUNT...

hey Hirazi, CGtalk softimage forum is just a desolate place, if you and other delete account I must start reading the 3dsm forum (arrrgh!)

RebelPixel@ I agree with you.

My posts didn't want be defeatism, but I exposed my personal idea about XSI development, the point I like and the point don't like.
Now this a real defeatism sentence:
why so happy about ICE modelling? for 100 bucks you can buy Houdini, more and more robust and complete procedural approach. In Odforce forum (a Houdini community) they laugh for all our (your) ICE enthusiasm.
If I, and other wanted a procedural software, we bought years ago Houdini, and not XSI.

I think only studio employer, where boss spend money (and not you) for software, and few other can be happy about the new XSI route.

Last edited by Ciuccio : 04 April 2011 at 02:56 PM.
 
Old 04 April 2011   #66
Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: Anybody else wants to get something off their chest before we, hopefully, resume more productive discussions?


Yeah, sometimes I sneak out very late night and drive to the 7-11 and buy snacks and eat them in the car before going home. My wife would kill me if she found out because I'm supposed to stay on a low sodium diet that she monitors strictly, but dammit, I just can't help myself!
Am I a bad person for that?

Whew, it feels good to finally confess my sins.

Back on topic, I suddenly feel very lucky to not have any huge need for the more advanced features of ICE and that what I need to do I can do easily enough.
As a result, I probably won't have much need to upgrade to Soft 2012, but I guess I'll just be waiting to see if anyone comes out with some good reasons why these new ICE updates might be useful for me.

In short, I agree with a lot of what RebelPixel said in the post above this one, and I hope that future Softimage releases can cater more to those of us who are still doing more traditional work with it.
 
Old 04 April 2011   #67
Originally Posted by Ciuccio: why so happy about ICE modelling? for 100 bucks you can buy Houdini, more and more robust and complete procedural approach. In Odforce forum (a Houdini community) they laugh for all our (your) ICE enthusiasm.
If I, and other wanted a procedural software, we bought years ago Houdini, and not XSI.

I think only studio employer, where boss spend money (and not you) for software, and few other can be happy about the new XSI route.


I'm pretty happy about it as a freelancer/small company. Anything that extends the possibilities of the software while retaining the tools that I've spent time learning is good for me. Using Houdini commercially with a network licence would cost $9,995!
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Old 04 April 2011   #68
I like to tend to stay out of these types of conversations, but sometimes things need to be said...Jaco, you are the mod that I like the best on here and the list, always very insightful with a lot of knowledge and you do let threads run for a while which is nice, but I think you have a somewhat preconceived notion/idea about peoples’ opinions and what they state - attacking Hirazi like that made me think that someone hijacked your account. Hirazi is one of the coolest guys I know from the forums and is always on top of information and press releases with anything Softimage related before anyone else. Personally, I mentioned this elsewhere, but as far as PR goes for online Softimage related material, I felt that Autodesk should hire Hirazi, because right now the AD PR is pretty poor. This leads into my ICE issue.

You did mention that you were on the alpha team of ICE and have been closely "tied-in" with AD and the Softimage team throughout - being on the List, backend communications with the Softimage team, and whatever else through the development of ICE. I guess you have to try to pull yourself away from those dealings and see how Autodesk presented this material to the normal new buyer - not from a standpoint of being on the Betas, and that is where I agree with Hirazi.

Just because not everyone is lining up to bow down to the greatness of ICE, doesn't mean people should disregard others opinions, especially when we ARE investing our money in a product that we as users would like to see somewhat of a certain outcome. I personally like ICE, I think it is a really cool idea and takes tons of hard work to make - pretty revolutionary in my book. However, it was indeed marketed (from an outsiders view) as being a very simple tool for artist - which has not come into fruition. People buy products based what they are shown, not what they cannot see in a closed Beta. When the first videos were shown of how cool ICE was, I was hooked and it looked very simple. Couple of releases later it has indeed went a different direction.

When we were given the opportunity to first see ICE Kinematics, I thought that was awesome, and I could only image that our version of an "ICE CAT" was on its way, especially when they started demo-ing Phil's Rabbit. Well, here is ICE Kinematics and I saw the videos of the "egg with two legs." That seems simple, yeah but not really when you start to get into the beef of it. There should have been a disclaimer in the videos saying that if you want to make something like Phil’s rabbit, prepare for a ride, and you still have to be able to script your own code for some things on that Rabbit, if I remember correctly. And when I first saw that Rabbit interacting with the ground on the fly, that was really sweet. Again, presented in a fashion “easy for anyone”…until you actually have to rebuild that rig. With the lack of documentation, good luck. I would much rather have them finished ICE Kinematics by making a somewhat CAT implementation and integrating it with FaceRobot. Having an ICE driven FaceRobot with a skeletal rig and muscle rig, with nice deformations for blending and wrinkles, all driven by ICE, would be sweet. Instead they are off on ICE Geometry. I much rather would have waited for 2012.5 or 2013 for Ice Geometry, and when that release would have came out, it would have been a lot more "beefed" up. Right now it seems like the approach of "hey, here are the basic nodes, no go make it yourself." But guess what that mentality leads into - plugin haven (Or ICE Compound Haven) ala Max. Which I thought Softimage was not going to turn out to be. I would rather have things finished and bugs taken care of before what feels like to be somewhat unfinished releases. How long have people been asking for an option for a Unit of Measure or a thickness tool in Softimage…forever maybe, because it still does not ship natively with Softimage. But then again someone from Autodesk released a thickness modifier on the List, and then another person put a link to their favorite thickness compound that might have an extra added feature... Okay, that is 2 now that we have. Would it have been so hard to have shipped at least one with Softimage after years and years of asking? Well, we have not 1 but 2, or 3, 4, 5, 6 ...how any different versions are going to start being posted by people just because they want to show they made one - it is going to become a mess. Now, what if you are a new user who has not heard of the List, and then I guess they are SOL until it is posted somewhere they can find it. Because, lets face it - the "end all be all" AREA, is definitely not a place where I can find what I need like it was supposed too.

For 2012, which I have only read things about as I just got my box in the mail yesterday and am going to take it for a test drive here shortly, I like the release as a whole but consistently overlooking the obvious updates and bugs are getting frustrating. I used to be on the Betas when Avid was in control, and I had many logs and emails of issues and simple feature requests that are still over looked to this day...Memo Cam errors, MR issues, etc... Now, with AD under control, for some reason I am not asked to be on the Beta, maybe I annoyed them with my abundance of findings, but if I was a company, I would want people that can find every nook-and-cranny possible, rather than just playing with the new features. Currently, I have over 2 pages of logs with AD tech support, a lot of which have not been updated. I am really happy with the support I get from Manny, he is awesome, but the logs that are still sitting there are bug related - mainly Mental Ray. I don't know how the Beta testing goes now that AD is under control of Softimage, but if I was running it, I would make sure that every Beta tester tests the software with only what comes natively with a released product first, then check to see if 3rd party things work. This major Mental Ray issue, I have to say, if I was on the Beta, would be somewhat embarrassed that this one slipped through.

I guess with my long explanation of things mentioned above one could gather what I would like in 2013, which is what the OP intended...Fix the things that have been neglected forever and build on the things that currently exist.

Last edited by Rez007 : 04 April 2011 at 04:54 PM.
 
Old 04 April 2011   #69
u know what they say...different strokes for different folks...
sometimes i wonder though, how come this type of discussion happens most of time in softimage related forums...
makes u wonder
ps. and yea, there's no need for that hirazi, we're still cool around here.
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Last edited by oktawu : 04 April 2011 at 05:52 PM.
 
Old 04 April 2011   #70
Let's not overreact.
The problem of ICE is how it is exposed in Softimage. It makes a shock to many.

For example terminology issues.

Example Pooby tutorial 5. http://vimeo.com/19035324

He brings a "Drag" force to make the sphere points return to the start position.
Why such a precise term? Why instead of "Drag" not use a much more simpler concept like "Resistance" that everyone knows. And use Resistance term everytime . When a force is applied there is resistance to that force, everyone knows that.

ICE should have some key concepts that explain it. That ICE key concepts should be linked to physics and the math world around us using in preference concepts that everyone learned in school.

Let's make an exercise for those that are experts in ICE define in 10 concept words that are in ICE nodes that can define the logic of ICE. Note that each of 10 terms that you use must be in ICE nodes you can't use any word that isn't in ICE nodes. If 10 aren't enough just add more but it should remain at manageable level.
 
Old 04 April 2011   #71
Originally Posted by Rez007: .
.
.

QFATA (Quoted For Almost Total Agreement)

Raff, you've always been a straight shooter, and I admire you immensely for that. Unfortunately very few of us have the kind of backstage access you have. So I think it would be understandable if some people were to have a different understanding of AD's marketing (as nonexistent as it is) and a different interpretation of were Softimage is heading. It's only fair to cut those people some slack, regardless of how correct or incorrect they are.
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Old 04 April 2011   #72
Originally Posted by RebelPixel: I think that ICE is good, but the complete lack of updates on the whole other part of the software is just bad in my opinion.

You could add a tiny bit of things here and there to please people who really cant get a grip with ICE, instead of fully update only ICE for 3 years.

We do. For example in Softimage 2012,

  • we revamped the Weight Editor so that it can edit normal weight maps and color-at-vertices and made workflow enhancements in there
  • we added unfold pinning in the texture editor
  • we enabled Quicktime in 64-bit
  • We created a new Layer Group feature in the Scene Layer editor
  • we updated the schematic view to show links for scripted operators, and more hot keys
  • we have a new Syflex. Sure, it's based on ICE, but it's faster and has a few more fixes
  • interopability with Mudbox.
  • Revamp FBX import/export, stereo cameras
  • tons of SDK enhancements, new events, new API, new Interactive tools SDK
  • Reference Models and other fixes (I don't think our public list contains them all)
http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/New_Features_for_Softimage_2012_%28version_10.0%29
http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com..._Softimage_2012




 
Old 04 April 2011   #73
Originally Posted by Bullit: Let's not overreact.
The problem of ICE is how it is exposed in Softimage. It makes a shock to many.

For example terminology issues.

Example Pooby tutorial 5. http://vimeo.com/19035324

He brings a "Drag" force to make the sphere points return to the start position.
Why such a precise term? Why instead of "Drag" not use a much more simpler concept like "Resistance" that everyone knows. And use Resistance term everytime . When a force is applied there is resistance to that force, everyone knows that.

ICE should have some key concepts that explain it. That ICE key concepts should be linked to physics and the math world around us using in preference concepts that everyone learned in school.

Let's make an exercise for those that are experts in ICE define in 10 concept words that are in ICE nodes that can define the logic of ICE. Note that each of 10 terms that you use must be in ICE nodes you can't use any word that isn't in ICE nodes. If 10 aren't enough just add more but it should remain at manageable level.


Actually, drag *IS* a real-world, physical concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_%28physics%29

Moreover, drag is in the direction opposite to movement, unlike resistance to force (a.k.a. inertia) which is in the direction opposite to the force applied. So, "drag" is the appropriate and correct term for that node.
 
Old 04 April 2011   #74
Originally Posted by luceric: We do. For example in Softimage 2012,
  • we revamped the Weight Editor so that it can edit normal weight maps and color-at-vertices and made workflow enhancements in there
  • we added unfold pinning in the texture editor
  • we enabled Quicktime in 64-bit
  • We created a new Layer Group feature in the Scene Layer editor
  • we updated the schematic view to show links for scripted operators, and more hot keys
  • we have a new Syflex. Sure, it's based on ICE, but it's faster and has a few more fixes
  • interopability with Mudbox.
  • Revamp FBX import/export, stereo cameras
  • tons of SDK enhancements, new events, new API, new Interactive tools SDK
  • Reference Models and other fixes (I don't think our public list contains them all)
http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com/index.php/New_Features_for_Softimage_2012_%28version_10.0%29
http://softimage.wiki.softimage.com..._Softimage_2012








Thats great that you guys did those things too, but there are still a lot that gets consistently overlooked... (i.e.) Did you guys fix that Memo Camera bug that I have had for over many years and many releases that I have reported numerous times and has been logged - on every release? That is a really frustrating one and is quite a hinderance.
 
Old 04 April 2011   #75
Originally Posted by oktawu: sometimes i wonder though, how come this type of discussion happens most of time in softimage related forums...
makes u wonder


yea right. there are tons of these kind of topics in 3ds/maya forums. with people bitching about bugs/features/lack of dev
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