softimage 2013

Become a member of the CGSociety

Connect, Share, and Learn with our Large Growing CG Art Community. It's Free!

THREAD CLOSED
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  04 April 2011
Originally Posted by oglu: right there is a send to soft button in mud...!


Thanks for the information, Christoph, that's outstanding news.
 
  04 April 2011
Originally Posted by pooby: A few months ago I had no real idea what a vector was. Or an array. I still struggle with mathematics beyond simple arithmetic (adding, subtraction and multiplication) I do not know how to write scripts. Yet I can make ICE do things that I find quite amazing.
A couple of days is all it takes to learn enough to get to a level where ICE can be fun and useful. You do realise that you dont have to make a deformer every time you want to USE a deformer? You CAN make a 1 button push, deformer, and even share it with the people who
have negatively pre-judged their own ability to use ICE before properly trying it.
( like me, this time last year, for example)


I tend to oppose, and sorry Paul, with all due respect, I know it wasn`t your intention (I appreciate all the free tutorials you made, really, please don`t be mad at me) but what you said sounds a bit arrogant, just like back in school when some guys who understood physics and the others did not: "oh, that`s so easy, just read the book".
I, for example, am trying to understand, REALLY understand ICE for a year now and besides a bit of "how to setup more or less basic particle stuff" there`s not much I can do with it. ICE is a big and ultimate dissapointment for me, and there are several causes for this.

1. the compound mess - I don`t know how many compounds exist, and that`s one of my main issues. There are so many nodes with meaningless names - how the hell am I supposed to know what they are built for? how can you even memorize them?

2. connecting the compounds - the node`s in- and outputs may be more or less self explanatory, but that doesn`t help in all those situations where you have mismatching channels, which quite happens all the time.

3. even autodesk admits that ICE kinematics for rigging purposes is so complex that only TDs should touch them due to the complex mathematics involved. sorry, but that is an epic failure from AD - it sounds like all of us have their own TDs sitting in their drawers.

Please Paul, I hope I didn`t insult you, but if things were really that easy as you say there would be way more practical examples other than those endless amounts of experiments on vimeo and the one or two projects I could see so far (i.e.: http://vimeo.com/6750372).
 
  04 April 2011
-

Originally Posted by Chris-TC: With every new release of Softimage, saying "I don't use ICE" becomes a bit more like a Photoshop user saying "I don't use layers."

ICE has become a core component of the program. You can now model, rig, transform, deform and do particle animation with it. If you keep ignoring ICE, you will keep being disappointed by the new versions.


You`re switching cause and effect - for a lot of people it`s not "I don't use ICE" but "I CAN`T use ICE because of lacking training and ease of use" - and regarding your second point, the software`s still named "Softimage" not "ICEimage", the users of Softimage want to be at least on par or better than the other 3D artists and not just users of the ICE-add-on to Maya and Max.
 
  04 April 2011
I have to repeat myself. : )
The most easy way to get into ICE is knowing basics about programming. Really BASICS.
Be humble and start from the beginning.
You are trying to jump into ICE with artistic mindset, that dosen`t work.
Youre looking for compounds that "does" something for you, instead you should be trying to understand "how" it does it for you.
You cannot do much if you don`t understand the underlaying concepts like iteration, variables, sampling ect..
 
  04 April 2011
@ViCoX - Although I think, you're more or less right, your post illustrates quite well "what went wrong with ICE" between its humble beginnings in XSI 7 and the here and now. The marketing slogan was "code less, create more" and what was implied was, that you could use compounds without having to know how they work, so an "artistic mindset" should have sufficed. But as you correctly point out, this has turned out to be nothing more than a marketing slogan...
The whole idea of ICE as an easy substitute to coding never appealed to me (as I liked coding and had a real hard time changing into the mindset you need for ICE), but that was how "they" originally presented it.
 
  04 April 2011
Originally Posted by kalone: I tend to oppose, and sorry Paul, with all due respect, I know it wasn`t your intention (I appreciate all the free tutorials you made, really, please don`t be mad at me) but what you said sounds a bit arrogant, just like back in school when some guys who understood physics and the others did not: "oh, that`s so easy, just read the book".
I, for example, am trying to understand, REALLY understand ICE for a year now and besides a bit of "how to setup more or less basic particle stuff" there`s not much I can do with it. ICE is a big and ultimate dissapointment for me, and there are several causes for this.

1. the compound mess - I don`t know how many compounds exist, and that`s one of my main issues. There are so many nodes with meaningless names - how the hell am I supposed to know what they are built for? how can you even memorize them?

2. connecting the compounds - the node`s in- and outputs may be more or less self explanatory, but that doesn`t help in all those situations where you have mismatching channels, which quite happens all the time.

3. even autodesk admits that ICE kinematics for rigging purposes is so complex that only TDs should touch them due to the complex mathematics involved. sorry, but that is an epic failure from AD - it sounds like all of us have their own TDs sitting in their drawers.

Please Paul, I hope I didn`t insult you, but if things were really that easy as you say there would be way more practical examples other than those endless amounts of experiments on vimeo and the one or two projects I could see so far (i.e.: http://vimeo.com/6750372).


In respect to what you're saying here, I think there's a disconnect from programmer types concerning what's possible when artist brain types try to do any kind of coding. Like I mentioned before, using ICE is way easier than writing code, but if your brain isn't wired for that type of thinking then you can only go so far with it.

I think Paul is under-selling his left-brain abilities.

I'm not saying art and logic are mutually exclusive, but they're generally two different skills that not everyone can have in abundance at the same time.
__________________
"I can picture a world without war, a world without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." -- Jack Handey
 
  04 April 2011
Marketing might have been misplaced.
However, in the end ICE is kindof visual programming language.. Its not magic bullet that makes everything easy, but it is definelty easier than programming.
So easy to use is bit misleading in that sense.

However "artistic mindset" works with many tools, like Lagoa, emfluid, syflex ect.
These are very "highlevel" tools/compounds and results are what you would expect.
 
  04 April 2011
-

Originally Posted by adrencg: Like I mentioned before, using ICE is way easier than writing code, but if your brain isn't wired for that type of thinking then you can only go so far with it.


yes, easier than coding, but if you need a brain specificially wired for ICE then it`s a big waste of programming ressources by AD (better put into other areas...) - as I said before, only very, very few people seem to embrace ICE to a remarkable extent and softimage already has a quite thin user base...

Originally Posted by adrencg: I think Paul is under-selling his left-brain abilities.


definately
 
  04 April 2011
-

Originally Posted by ViCoX: I have to repeat myself. : )
The most easy way to get into ICE is knowing basics about programming. Really BASICS.
Be humble and start from the beginning.

ok, you mean if/else/while/arrays/conditions with basics, right? or not so...

Originally Posted by ViCoX: You are trying to jump into ICE with artistic mindset, that dosen`t work.

the technical mindset was required to operate the tools when I started with CGI in the 90ies and most of the work was awful because there were far too many technical people.
Only very few people can do both, art and tech equally well.

Originally Posted by ViCoX: You cannot do much if you don`t understand the underlaying concepts like iteration, variables, sampling ect..

other than variables this is not what I would call "basics"...
 
  04 April 2011
Originally Posted by Hirazi: @ViCoX - Although I think, you're more or less right, your post illustrates quite well "what went wrong with ICE" between its humble beginnings in XSI 7 and the here and now. The marketing slogan was "code less, create more" and what was implied was, that you could use compounds without having to know how they work, so an "artistic mindset" should have sufficed. But as you correctly point out, this has turned out to be nothing more than a marketing slogan...
The whole idea of ICE as an easy substitute to coding never appealed to me (as I liked coding and had a real hard time changing into the mindset you need for ICE), but that was how "they" originally presented it.


Code less create more didn't mean you could junk stuff together without knowing what it is or how it works.
It means what it says, write less code and work more experimentally/iteratively and faster.

In those regards: Mission F'in Accomplished.

ICE was never an "easy substitute to coding", nor was it presented so.

You're a good guy in my book Hirazi, but sometimes you have a way of coalescing your perceptions of things into facts and history or something.
The above is pretty far from how it went.

As for Kalone: Going by the list of your problems, I'm not surprised you're finding ICE difficult.
If you're trying to "memorise" everything and need to know what every compound does, instead of trying to figure out the basic and having an empyrical approach, you will always bleed your nose against the wall in matters of experimention, design and so on.

Pooby's humble throw-yourself-into-the-deep-end seems to have served him, somebody who is fundamentally an artist, much better to me.
__________________
Come, Join the Cult http://www.cultofrig.com - Rigging from First Principles

Last edited by ThE_JacO : 04 April 2011 at 12:37 AM.
 
  04 April 2011
@ThE_JacO - Luckily, you're always right...

Last edited by Hirazi : 04 April 2011 at 08:04 AM.
 
  04 April 2011
...also ICE is very visual. You can see vectors firing and matrices rotating.
It makes it exciting also to visual people. : )

I`m more artistic than technical and I have no educational background in cg. It just takes the effort.
 
  04 April 2011
Originally Posted by Hirazi: @ThE_JacO - Luckily, you're always right...

Oh yeah, sarcasm, that's sure to further the conversation... /irony

I have no pretense of being always right, nor I have suggested I am, but when you state:
Quote: The marketing slogan was "code less, create more" and what was implied was, that you could use compounds without having to know how they work, so an "artistic mindset" should have sufficed.

You are inferring that your perception of ONE slogan is the truth of that marketing campaign.
Nowhere was implied it wouldn't be a technical element of the software: Take the cue from the fact that that is the slogan of Qt as well.

Having used ICE since the very first alpha and up to today, and having been close to Soft for a good stretch of the way, I have some pretty damn accurate memories of their marketing, of the discussions on forums and mailing lists, and the comments offered by their staff.
At no point in that timeline ANYBODY from Soft or AD afterwards ever suggested or implied you wouldn't need to know anything or "an artist mindset" would suffice (barring the fact Pooby is very much of the artistic persuasion and seems to be doing pretty well btw).

In case this is escaping anybody's attention, I have a track record here of having let pretty much any and every type of discussion take place. I hardly ever close or move threads (we're talking once a year) even when they are at the very edge of the forum rules.

I still have a responsibility about the signal2noise ratio on these forums, and the bit that DOES seem to be escaping people's attention, is that this isn't an AD official channel, or a "place of lamentation". This forum is meant for constructive discussion about use and abuse of a specific software, sharing techniques, ideas, bugs and their workaround and solutions.

When a thread goes on for 3 pages and all the contributions that seem to come in from a few members are nothing other than non-constructive whinging and defeatism, sarcastics one-liners, appeals to the right of bitching on the internet, I do take issue with the contents, and I will chime in to correct inaccuracies when I know for a fact what they are.

Have a nice day,
Raff
__________________
Come, Join the Cult http://www.cultofrig.com - Rigging from First Principles
 
  04 April 2011
ok

Originally Posted by ViCoX: ...also ICE is very visual. You can see vectors firing and matrices rotating.
It makes it exciting also to visual people. : )

I`m more artistic than technical and I have no educational background in cg. It just takes the effort.


any samples of your work?? I`m getting curious...
 
  04 April 2011
Originally Posted by kalone: any samples of your work?? I`m getting curious...

Well, the newest SI and ICE project was this. I made rain and vegetation system, rendered and compped it.
I have been thinking of making some simple tutorials to ICE.
It is also communitys fault that it is hard to get into ICE, we need more stuff like Pooby. : )
 
Thread Closed share thread



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
CGSociety
Society of Digital Artists
www.cgsociety.org

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright 2000 - 2006,
Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Minimize Ads
Forum Jump
Miscellaneous

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.