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  04 April 2011
Originally Posted by Hirazi: ICE-berg.

Did you trademark that phrase yet? Because I would so buy the T-shirt

Seriously though, I think we have two main problems with the free plug-ins: One is that there was no central database for them, which is no longer an issue thanks to rray.de. And the other is poor documentation. And I'm sure there are many gems out there that I and many others are not using simply because the documentation and presentation don't do them justice.

As someone who has written and shared a couple of plugins in the past, I can say from experience that coding is usually the fun part and it's totally worth doing for free if the project is small enough and the idea is neat enough. It's writing the documentation and polishing the presentation that is the insufferable part of the process. So I do sympathize with all plugin contributors out there if their documentation is lacking. But still, most tools out there are desperately in need of better docs.
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  04 April 2011
there are some things about softimage dev that still baffle me even to this day.
take the wacom issue, okay, so stephen stepped in with a workaround...but mind u,
it's just a hack, it's not a real fix. how on earth have people been doing heavy work
with xsi and tablets in large production environments is a mistery to me...
second, and this has been discussed a billion times, is ascii scene file access.
now i know for hobbyists and freelancers, this is no biggie (though in 2011, with all
the complexities of current projects, it should be). it was and still is (besides multiplatform
support and lack of a large userbase) one of the main reasons why xsi hasn't set foot in large productions. how on earth do others deal with it, again, is beyond me (say animal logic?).
i have first hand experience of the wonders of having direct access to a scene in ur notepad, and trust me, it is huge. i've been using this software since 1.5, thats almost 11 years, and i love it to death, but there are things, that seem like taken out of a scifi movie, when it comes to its development. like the current hiatus with disconnected shaders (and this has to be the creepiest, nastiest, and most long lasting bug ever in a 3d app), or a tale from the past, i remember when v5.11 came out, and the syflex pins were broken. we were like...how on earth did this get past the beta?? did no one run cloth sims in any project, anywhere on the beta? i mean, that stuff is just beyond weird... (on the upside, it got fixed asap).
don't get me wrong, i wholeheartedly admire the dedication and amazing skills of the dev team, in doing what they are doing with ice, but there are other things, that have been needed since version 1, that are still being asked for to this day. so i dunno, slap those marketing fellas a little bit, and shake some sense into them
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Last edited by oktawu : 04 April 2011 at 10:27 PM.
 
  04 April 2011
first of all thanks to pooby for his really good Vimeo channel

Quote: From my perspective, I have a tool that , without any coding; through ICE and Soft's excellent original set of tools,

You said the best XSI part is ICE, ok, I don't say no but Houdini is, in this field, a (significant) step forward. Like you I find XSI tools excellent, but if AD don't update this tools (and many are the some from 6.5) this become, release after release, obsolete or copied and improved by other software, because XSI tools are excellent, but not perfect so a improvement margin is possible and must be reach (and software like Modo may be an example).

Oktawu said this a the only way for XSI to survive. After this 2012 release, I think, AD must improve other XSI point, cannot doing other ICe evolution (ok, they can but the margin now is more limited). So, as discussing in this topic, my fear is about AD marketing: they don't want improve other aspects because, in example, improve XSI animation capability will disturb Maya marketing and the creative suite selling (why buy all three software if can doing all perfectly in modern way whit only, more cheaper, XSI?)

So, do XSI take the FX route (field where software like real flow and houdini are really too strong)?

Little note, creative suite (XSI, 3dsm or maya, motion builder and mudbox) cost 7500 $, comprensive subscription, in any case too high.

Quote: don't get me wrong, i wholeheartedly admire the dedication and amazing skills of the dev team, in doing what they are doing with ice, but there are other things, that have been needed since version 1, that are still being asked for to this day. so i dunno, slap those marketing fellas a little bit, and shake some sense into them

Why? My idea is dev. team don't listen the userbase, at all, but only marketing department (or big studio requests). For this reason I don't ask any support by developments team, but would like only know what is the XSI route.
Under this aspect I'm a bit nostalgic, company like Luxology have a more empathic attitude with their customers.

Last edited by Ciuccio : 04 April 2011 at 10:38 PM.
 
  04 April 2011
Quote: So, do XSI take the FX route (field where software like real flow and houdini are really too strong)?


this has been a long beaten horse since before the ice days...and the truth is
xsi will never break into the houdini market. but what it can break in, and has done so,
is the freelancers/small studio market. problem with that is, not much revenue there.


Quote: my fear is about AD marketing: they don't want improve other aspects because, in example, improve XSI animation capability will disturb Maya marketing and the creative suite selling


bingo, that is exactly why they can't, and probably won't round the edges...

Quote: Why? My idea is dev. team don't listen the userbase, at all, but only marketing department (or big studio requests). For this reason I don't ask any support by developments team, but would like only know what is the XSI route.
Under this aspect I'm a bit nostalgic, company like Luxology have a more empathic attitude with their customers.


now, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. the xsi dev team are a stellar bunch, period.
it's the autodesk management/pr/marketing whatever, that's the problem here.
and xsi vs modo, is like apples and oranges. different market segments alltogether.
had xsi been ported to osx, maybe, but still, a long shot.
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  04 April 2011
I'm hoping Softimage:Behavior gets resurrected as ICE compounds.
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  04 April 2011
Originally Posted by Ciuccio: Why? My idea is dev. team don't listen the userbase, at all, but only marketing department (or big studio requests). For this reason I don't ask any support by developments team, but would like only know what is the XSI route.
Under this aspect I'm a bit nostalgic, company like Luxology have a more empathic attitude with their customers.


Your idea is simply wrong. The beta lists see a lot more activity from small and medium sized studios and freelances, and small 3rd party developers, than they ever do from "us" big studios, which tend to wait well after release for adoption.
The marketing department btw MARKETS the product, as the name might suggest, they don't steer the development, nor would have the technicals means to do.
The suggestion that any software company in DCC out there might listen to what might look cool on brochures to steer development is in the same camp of the tinfoil hats conspiracies.

They might listen to sales (especially missed ones) in those regards, and they should, as it's normally the reflection of the large majority of the user-base that is silent through the other channels.
Mind, some of them, like you apparently, are so for some mis-placed sense of defeatism apparently.
"Don't ask, don't get, what did you expect?"

As for the rest of the comments, lots of personal stuff, but when I read that XSI was seeing more development under Avid than it does now, then I have to dismiss this as the occasional QQ thread.

A gigantic pile of assumptions, mostly wrong ones, and some rather hapzarded conclusions. That is, of course, just my personal opinion.
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Last edited by ThE_JacO : 04 April 2011 at 06:34 AM.
 
  04 April 2011
Quote: this has been a long beaten horse since before the ice days...and the truth is
xsi will never break into the houdini market. but what it can break in, and has done so,
is the freelancers/small studio market. problem with that is, not much revenue there.

I'm sure about this point, but how SI quote can rise up if they no more aim to little studio and freelance and cannot break the Houdini domain?
In the case they want point to FX and houdini market, for me is the some, I don't need so not renew subscription.
Must wait the 2012.5 release for understood a bit more about the direction.

Quote: now, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. the xsi dev team are a stellar bunch, period.
it's the autodesk management/pr/marketing whatever, that's the problem here.


Quote: Your idea is simply wrong. The beta lists see a lot more activity from small and medium sized studios and freelances, and small 3rd party developers, than they ever do from "us" big studios, which tend to wait well after release for adoption.

Some users request are ignored (I read in different forums) from release XSI 5 (and Oktawu said from release 1) , this was, obviously, before AD acquisition, and the only think don't cage in this years are the dev. team; for these reason I said dev team don't listen the usersbase, or had (in any case) obey to different orders.

Quote: and xsi vs modo, is like apples and oranges. different market segments alltogether.
had xsi been ported to osx, maybe, but still, a long shot.

Never did a Modo/XSI war, don't need; what I point is the different attitude, about their userbase needs and request, between autodesk and luxology. Everywhere XSI user demand a more fast and efficient rendering, and the wrong area in 2012 is just rendering (it is impossible a beta tester don't see this issue, in a minute I found this problem, so they don't test at all what their userbase demand and needs).

Quote: Mind, some of them, like you apparently, are so for some mis-placed sense of defeatism apparently.
"Don't ask, don't get, what did you expect?"

I'm sorry if I look so, but like customer I think, I have all the rights to doing consideration and lamentation about the products I brought. My initial answer was not a dev team denigration, or blame AD marketing (as I said, there is no crime if they want sell me more software), but I want know software I like (and brought) where going. I think no one beneficial if we separate ourself in defeatism and "in any case I'm happy about". Blender community (the biggest and more supportive I think) has the odious attitude to blame and isolate anyone talk about the bad or not well implemented Blender area or tools. I think we are all in the some ship, and don't doing anything terrible if discussing about the future (near future in less six months we will see, probably, a 2012.5 release), for the sake of doing this and, most important, because we invest our money, time study and entrust our work to this software.

Quote: A gigantic pile of assumptions, mostly wrong ones, and some rather hapzarded conclusions. That is, of course, just my personal opinion.

Like the "gigantic pile of assumptions" was my opinion. In any case facts are here, under our eyes:
- if you need and like ICE, AD management doing much more better then avid one
- if you don't need ice and has generalist interests (from archiviz to character modelling and animation), AD update is really poor. Really simple.

In any case, does no one has an answer for me about my initial post? Did or not end the ICE run? And if ICE ends it run and marketing don't want listen the usersbase request, where do will point XSI route tomorrow?

Last edited by Ciuccio : 04 April 2011 at 08:07 AM.
 
  04 April 2011
I think that the biggest difference here, just to answer quickly and get over with this already, is the fact that i want to learn a tool to use in my work, i want to spend time to use tools and to work, i dont want to learn HOW to create those tools, because this is what ICE is.

ICE is not a tool itself, it is an environment for tools creation, wich means that all people who are interested in creating tools are in heaven, the ones who just need to push 1 button and have a deformer applied arent really in heaven.

Just my opinion, when i got free time i like to try ICE and try to study it, but the time you need to invest to achieve anything decent is too much and i'm not skilled enough in math/vectors and everything that ICE requires you to know.

That said, i think Softimage developers are pure genius and never wanted to say otherwise, i love to see Softimage so strong lately, i just would like to have some attention into other things, because as many people said here they are not touched since years now, and not everyone again is that tech and skilled into coding tools and using ICE.
 
  04 April 2011
Originally Posted by Ciuccio: Some users request are ignored (I read in different forums) from release XSI 5 (and Oktawu said from release 1) , this was, obviously, before AD acquisition, and the only think don't cage in this years are the dev. team; for these reason I said dev team don't listen the usersbase, or had (in any case) obey to different orders.

It's not some users' requests, it's some requests that get ignored.
There's only so many hours in a year, and the vocal minority of whingers is very far removed from what the bigger but more reserved channels really transmit.
Some requests are just impossible to implement, some simply didn't get implemented because they are lower in priority, and some others have got implemented.
The summary of that isn't they "obey different orders", or that they don't listen to the userbase. The summary of that is that you can please a few people most of the time, or most people some of the time. You can never please all people at all times, because they have wildly conflicting priorities and demands, not to mention a solid two thirds of them can barely articulate their thoughts, let alone have some resemblance of consistency in what they ask and how.

Is that perfect? Hell no. Is it a damn sight better than a lot of other client feedback loops? Yes, after years in many camps, I think it is. It can be better, but it's definitely not such horrid and disfunctional beast.

I have things I've been asking for since 2001 and that haven't been implemented. They are big, gamechanging things, and they might take time, or even never get implemented because they might make the app something other people won't want to use.
I also, however, have seen a lot of things I've asked for (and many others have) done, and done well.

Quote: Never did a Modo/XSI war, don't need; what I point is the different attitude, about their userbase needs and request, between autodesk and luxology. Everywhere XSI user demand a more fast and efficient rendering, and the wrong area in 2012 is just rendering (it is impossible a beta tester don't see this issue, in a minute I found this problem, so they don't test at all what their userbase demand and needs).

AD can't do much with MRay, which is where the problems come from. They can, however, create better rendering APIs, and guess what? They did, which is why you now have options such as 3DElight and Arnold. Because the userbase wanted alternatives to MRay for rendering, but the API wasn't where it needed to be, so it got changed and extended to where it is now, which is in a damn good place.

Quote: In any case, does no one has an answer for me about my initial post? Did or not end the ICE run? And if ICE ends it run and marketing don't want listen the usersbase request, where do will point XSI route tomorrow?

They can't tell you that, for some pretty restrictive corporate laws which impeed announcing anything that isn't being released in full within the same quarter. If you have an issue with that, bring it up with the senate of the U.S.A. and all the ancilliary organs regulating such things.
Also, assuming that now that ICE supports modelling it's "complete" is asinine on the best of day.

Soft is the only software out there who had the balls to work on the backend and the structure of the product, and if you can't see how that already changed the game for 3rd party developers and users alike, not to mention opened the door for quicker internal development, then I guess you'll never see the bigger picture, and you'll keep posting once every two or three years to complain about something, to then leave again.
I can live with that.
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  04 April 2011
Quote: ICE is not a tool itself, it is an environment for tools creation, wich means that all people who are interested in creating tools are in heaven, the ones who just need to push 1 button and have a deformer applied arent really in heaven.

Just my opinion, when i got free time i like to try ICE and try to study it, but the time you need to invest to achieve anything decent is too much and i'm not skilled enough in math/vectors and everything that ICE requires you to know.


A few months ago I had no real idea what a vector was. Or an array. I still struggle with mathematics beyond simple arithmetic (adding, subtraction and multiplication) I do not know how to write scripts. Yet I can make ICE do things that I find quite amazing.
A couple of days is all it takes to learn enough to get to a level where ICE can be fun and useful. You do realise that you dont have to make a deformer every time you want to USE a deformer? You CAN make a 1 button push, deformer, and even share it with the people who
have negatively pre-judged their own ability to use ICE before properly trying it.
( like me, this time last year, for example)
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  04 April 2011
@ShaderOp - You're right: documentation is often a severe problem with any kind of third-party tool. But this goes for free plugins and commercial ones alike, as I, for instance, wasn't really impressed with the Momentum 2 documentation, to name just one example...
(And personally I find the Softimage documentation hasn't gotten better over the years either...)
 
  04 April 2011
Quote: I think that the biggest difference here, just to answer quickly and get over with this already, is the fact that i want to learn a tool to use in my work, i want to spend time to use tools and to work, i dont want to learn HOW to create those tools, because this is what ICE is.

understood your point and understood why you said "XSI is not for freelance", but you are wrong here, take a look at ICE, you will lost a week or less in learning, it is more and more simple then scripting. Under this point of view ICE is really revolutionary and useful (IMO, more simple then Houdini).

Quote: ICE is not a tool itself, it is an environment for tools creation, wich means that all people who are interested in creating tools are in heaven, the ones who just need to push 1 button and have a deformer applied arent really in heaven.

I think you need Cinema 4d
Cinema nature is this: simplicity and one button solution everywhere ( I don't know Cinema, but have a friend who use it, and they said me everything is really simple).

Quote: AD can't do much with MRay, which is where the problems come from.

Ok, but MR is the for Maya and 3dsm, in this package seems more fast, more feature and better implemented. Why? We have a fully integrated MR, in my ignorance for me it mean a better MR performance.

Quote: They did, which is why you now have options such as 3DElight and Arnold. Because the userbase wanted alternatives to MRay for rendering, but the API wasn't where it needed to be, so it got changed and extended to where it is now, which is in a damn good place.

Again, in my ignorance, I hope the package, doing my work, don't look api or things like, this. This is a good point, must admit, never considering (also, I considered the SDK and api improvement a advantage for the big studio and not for a freelance)

Quote: They can't tell you that, for some pretty restrictive corporate laws which impeed announcing anything that isn't being released in full within the same quarter. If you have an issue with that, bring it up with the senate of the U.S.A. and all the ancilliary organs regulating such things.

I know this point, and just know AD cannot talk about the future, my was a question for the community.

Quote: Soft is the only software out there who had the balls to work on the backend and the structure of the product, and if you can't see how that already changed the game for 3rd party developers and users alike, not to mention opened the door for quicker internal development, then I guess you'll never see the bigger picture, and you'll keep posting once every two or three years to complain about something, to then leave again.
I can live with that.


I like softimage but if the cage under the hood will not traduce in a near advantage for my work I cannot be happy. I'm, and I think other, are too little and too involved in everyday work issue for thinking about api and sdk, not for stupidity (give me, at least, don't consider myself a fool), but, as Rebel Pixel said, we have no so many time.

I have the feeling that your tone is a bit 'annoyed and not very accommodating, if my arguments are boring or unimportant I just can stop posting (just ask). Have just wrote as I think about:
Quote: I'm sorry if I look so, but like customer I think, I have all the rights to doing consideration and lamentation about the products I brought. My initial answer was not a dev team denigration, or blame AD marketing (as I said, there is no crime if they want sell me more software), but I want know software I like (and brought) where going. I think no one beneficial if we separate ourself in defeatism and "in any case I'm happy about". Blender community (the biggest and more supportive I think) has the odious attitude to blame and isolate anyone talk about the bad or not well implemented Blender area or tools. I think we are all in the some ship, and don't doing anything terrible if discussing about the future (near future in less six months we will see, probably, a 2012.5 release), for the sake of doing this and, most important, because we invest our money, time study and entrust our work to this software.
 
  04 April 2011
Hey Paul. i've watched all your tutorials on vimeo lots of times, and i find them inspiring and really helpfull, and while i'm at this i owe you a big thank you for your effort!

I agree on what you say about ICE, but well there are too many roadblocks when you work with it if you dont fully understand many basic and math stuff, i had a look on how the procedural new modeling works and i couldnt understand many things, not that they are not explained in the help, but for example it would never come to my mind that to create a geometry i should add an array of points in counter clockwise order, or why i should use the array index.

I mean the problem is not ICE itself, is the deep knowledge that is behind it, of course i can watch a videotutorial (when there is one....) and repro that particular tool, but do that alone from scratch is kinda difficult and hard.

I guess this links to the issue we were discussing before regarding a total absence of help/good docs/good tutorials about the subject (yours are excluded!!! )

I like ICE, and to me things are fine like they are, if only we could get a refresh on some other tools i would be happy, but i must admit that many friends and people i know who tried to switch to Softimage, dropped it by desperation because of lack of understandig what ICE does. You might find it easy because you are good at it, but for a total fresh noob, its kinda hard.

Again thanks for your tutorials
 
  04 April 2011
you're welcome.
I agree that, if you were a complete newbie, you probably wouldn't want to start your Softimage experience with learning ICE, but then, the general workflow and tools of Softimage are very user freindly and easy to pick up and learn, imo.

A big source of confusion is that Nodally programming something in ICE is different to using the tools it creates.
If somebody really doesnt want to learn to customise or make their own tools, thats understandable, (even though I think they are missing out big time) but if they dont want appreciate or want to use the ICE tools others have built then thats just folly.

At some point, ICE will probably allow the customisation of the way user interacts with Softimage, so we might well see user-created hair brushing /styling tools, or new enveloping tools and maybe something like the FX tree will be integrated into ICE, allowing 3d painting tools to be created. I would, in fact be very suprised if this is not the case.
Those who suggest that ICE is nearly complete, are lacking in Vision. In my opinion, it has hardly started scratching the surface of whats possible.
I mean, If I can make a GI renderer in it, now without knowing how renderers work, or how to code, http://vimeo.com/20652466 then I think the future potential of ICE is very exciting indeed.
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  04 April 2011
@Ciuccio - don't stop posting... (I'll say no more)

edit: sorry misspelled your name...

Last edited by Hirazi : 04 April 2011 at 10:52 AM.
 
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