Graphics Card technical specs

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Old 09 September 2013   #16
why hit your head against the wall?
 
Old 09 September 2013   #17
Last I heard Chaos Group was planning on dropping OCL support in V-Ray. So I guess that leaves what, Indigo?
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Old 09 September 2013   #18
I can't stand watching AMD being segregated like this. It simply isn't fair. Wicked Nvidia and Renderer developers
 
Old 09 September 2013   #19
Aiming a gun squarely at your own feet and then pulling the trigger isn't 'being segregated'...
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Old 09 September 2013   #20
Originally Posted by Lanre: I can't stand watching AMD being segregated like this. It simply isn't fair. Wicked Nvidia and Renderer developers

It's not segregation at all.
nVIDIA got there first, provided GPGPU focused resources for farming (Tesla) early on and is therefore ahead of the curve. As a brand it's much more widely adopted in the DCC market, and CUDA is simply a more mature, served and docuemented platform than OCL for many applications, not to mention that nVIDIA has broad support of technology and a clearer and more responsive driver dev map and bugfix rate, and has had linux and scientific community support for much longer than ATI's pre and post-acquisition.

It's simply a much stronger candidate and an easier platform to work with. AMD is way behind in all those regards, and while OCL is an open standard, which is good, it's far from being enough to push people into adoption. especially when the CPU partners don't care much for it.
We'll see if HSA will blow anybody's socks off, which won't be for a few years anyway, and if they ever will get anywhere close to the farm market, but for now you can't blame developers or call foul play if they decide not to support OCL yet. They have practically no incentive to.

So, what happened to all these amazing OCL products you mentioned as dominating the market before and would advise buying an OCL focused card for? Thought of any yet?
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Old 09 September 2013   #21
Let's not rip his heart out just yet, folks.

Lanre, you're young and while your intentions are good, butting heads against long-standing and very experienced techs and CG artists here will not win you any points, son. Relax. Do your own thing, but listen to what people here are saying. It will help you, nobody is telling you these things to hurt you. But if you come in here and misinform people about topics you're merely speculating on, you're not going to get good reactions. The original poster here was asking for advice on how to spend his money - and you gave him bad advice. Don't do that. Better to know nothing than to know something wrong.

If you blow your own money on dual-GPU Radeon or Crossfire setup only to find, just as everyone else in the universe (including the people who developed the software you're using in the first place) has told you, that it has no effect on the Viewport itself, you'll feel pretty bad! And we don't want you to feel bad.

Relax. Absorb all this information, and it's entirely okay to be wrong. To be wrong is to be a scientist! Being right is easy.
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Old 09 September 2013   #22
I'd just like to add that I did eventually get the 780 (MSI twin frozr for 499). I have been blown away by its gaming performance, but as Imashination suggested early on... it hasn't actually improved my 3DS max / Revit / Sketchup /Rhino viewport experience much. My scenes take roughly about the same time to load (I'm going to see how a ssd remedies this in coming weeks), and about the same time to respond to a command (say orbit)... however once orbiting... the card is much smoother and runs at what I would estimate to be a fair improvement in fps. (Sadly i didn't fraps my old card so I cant compare sorry). In conclusion: I am glad I didn't spend extra on a Titan that probably wouldn't have helped much more.

What I am doing next is trying to improve my CPU by OCing (running at stock speed of 3.4 - which I hope to get up to 4.5 or higher), and I've bought a fancy watercooler (h100i) to help with this (I know there are cheaper alternatives - but my system was running hot and this one had good reviews).

Finally... In the hopefully not to distant future, I hope to get a quaddro card. I am hoping this will have a significant increase in fps for viewport, and will probably (nearer the time) run a new post asking for advice on how best to do this (and which one to go for). Thanks all very much for the help - and its been interesting reading the follow on conversation
 
Old 09 September 2013   #23
Originally Posted by kev030981: My scenes take roughly about the same time to load (I'm going to see how a ssd remedies this in coming weeks),

That has nothing to do with the videocard (if you assumed it would), and it might or might not be affected by a new drive.
If the long load time is due to data transfer (large files), then it will improve considerably. But long load times can be just as commonly be a complex graph or preflight check, which are CPU bound.

Quote: and about the same time to respond to a command (say orbit)...

Also, usually, not videocard dependent.

Quote: however once orbiting... the card is much smoother and runs at what I would estimate to be a fair improvement in fps. (Sadly i didn't fraps my old card so I cant compare sorry).

That's the only thing of what you mentioned somewhat videocard related, hence why it's the only place where you saw an improvement

Quote: In conclusion: I am glad I didn't spend extra on a Titan that probably wouldn't have helped much more.

In terms of what you've described not at all. It would have made an enormous difference if you needed DP or if you were capping the RAM of your 780 though, but you don't sound like you're doing either.

Quote: What I am doing next is trying to improve my CPU by OCing (running at stock speed of 3.4 - which I hope to get up to 4.5 or higher), and I've bought a fancy watercooler (h100i) to help with this (I know there are cheaper alternatives - but my system was running hot and this one had good reviews).

If you haven't unboxed it and can return it you could as well get an H50. It's unlikely to be the cooler that will make the difference between 4.3 (practically guaranteed) and 4.7 (about one third of the CPUs make it there, only a small fraction past that). It will be down to how lucky your roll of the dice with that particular CPU will have been.
Cooling only makes a difference when you are truly and aggressively pushing the voltage to stabilize a big boost, and Haswell CPUs will normally pocket up heat internally and stay relatively high in temperature regardless of the small difference in dispersion capability between an H50 and an H100.

Quote: Finally... In the hopefully not to distant future, I hope to get a quaddro card. I am hoping this will have a significant increase in fps for viewport, and will probably (nearer the time) run a new post asking for advice on how best to do this (and which one to go for). Thanks all very much for the help - and its been interesting reading the follow on conversation

In what situation? Because chances are it won't
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Old 09 September 2013   #24
Thanks Jaco - hope you dont mind me asking for a little more clarification then?

Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: That's the only thing of what you mentioned somewhat videocard related, hence why it's the only place where you saw an improvement


Can I ask then: The major 3D modelling packages - 3DS max, Rhino, Sketchup and Revit (for an architect - I'm only discounting autocad as i don't use it for 3d)... What actually helps improve viewport performance?
(I'm hoping it isn't something different for each one - although as I'm typing this I suspect it probably is!)

Originally Posted by ThE_JacO: If you haven't unboxed it and can return it you could as well get an H50.


Well iI've unboxed and started using it - and am very pleased with the results. Its pretty much cut my heat output by 50% (now no higher than 45 at load). For future reference (in your opinion) how is the h50 better? I was torn between the h80i and the h100i - I chose the latter based on results saying it was one of the best closed loop water coolers...


Finally - I suppose I may get some idea of this from my first question, but if the Quadro wouldnt help viewport, what actually does it do? In a situation where a CPU render engine (Vray) is used... how does a Quadro improve the software if not viewport?

Sorry for any confusion - its just interesting to get specific answers, read a bit around this subject and things are usually vague or contested...
Thanks for any light you can shed on the matter
(PS: And sorry if this is going off topic - feel we're still on same ish subject!)
 
Old 09 September 2013   #25
Originally Posted by kev030981: Can I ask then: The major 3D modelling packages - 3DS max, Rhino, Sketchup and Revit (for an architect - I'm only discounting autocad as i don't use it for 3d)... What actually helps improve viewport performance?
(I'm hoping it isn't something different for each one - although as I'm typing this I suspect it probably is!)

I can't comment on Revit or Sketchup, but even for Max and Rhino, which I have a better understanding of, people often mention "viewport performance" but truly mean their interaction with the application in general.
A videocard is going to be uniquely responsible for a few things where other components make little to no difference.
Transforming shaded vertices, shading pixels for more complex shaders, drawing textures, handling all that data once it's in the video ram and so on.

But, in example, moving a trim curve around has very little to do with the videocard as the actual most expensive part of it is all the high order surface work that's usually CPU bound.
Same for subdivision surface modelling, by the time the videocard actually comes into play to draw the triangles (and a modern videocard can draw and transform an unholy amount of triangles) the CPU calculating the SDS will have taken a much bigger chunk of time and the videocard only plays a small part in your latency.

The videocard basically comes into play once the "mesh" feed is ready to be passed to the GPU. Before then (deforming, modelling, tweaking, the scene graph and so on) you're heavily CPU bound.
Of course since there's a lot of data transfer back and forth a strong videocard will cut that considerably, but when those operations on the CPU become complex enough the CPU time takes more and more while the actual transfer, shading and rendering usually takes a constant amount of time, making less and less difference.

Things change when, in example, you have a massive textured environment with complex shaders (DX ubershader) and a simple character moving in it, in that case the static environment coming into camera and all the shading work will be almost exclusively GPU bound and remain videocard side, and amount to a lot more work than deforming a simple character, therefore making the GPU shine.
Camera navigation of a complex, heavily textured and shaded environment is videocard dependent in example, "viewport performance" is a word with too many shades of gray. Well, two words.
Interaction and viewport performance are too often confused and mixed up, your interaction with the software depends on a number of factors, and whiere on the hardware the load lands is highly variant depending on what you're doing.

Quote: Well iI've unboxed and started using it - and am very pleased with the results. Its pretty much cut my heat output by 50% (now no higher than 45 at load). For future reference (in your opinion) how is the h50 better? I was torn between the h80i and the h100i - I chose the latter based on results saying it was one of the best closed loop water coolers...

I was suggesting it to save a few bucks.

The H100i is an excellent piece of kit and in every way superior to the H50 if you have the space in the case for it. Just the difference at normal overclock isn't that sensitive.

IE: I run a 4770k at 4.7+ Ghz with very aggressive settings, a slight overvolting, and even a base bump with an h50 and if I really crank it with HT off and no rest/frequency drop settings it just doesn't make it to 60, and under normal but constant load (games, working with apps topping it but not quite the same sustained effort of a simulation or rendering) it normally stays between 40 and 55..


Quote: Finally - I suppose I may get some idea of this from my first question, but if the Quadro wouldnt help viewport, what actually does it do?

It has features the gtx don't have, such as per buffer 12bit per channel colour, support for hardware stereo and so on, it has uncrippled double precision performance in the 1/4th realm (the 7xx and 6xx are crippled to 1/24th, the Titan to 1/8th but is ahead of the k5k in sheer specs so doesn't fall too behind) and so on.
The drivers also tend to implement features and settings that tend to bump DCC apps by a small margin.
If you don't need those features, and the apps you listed don't use them AFAIK, and you nail a solid driver and set of settings for the GTX cards, unless you go for the retardedly expensive quadros (k6k) GTX cards are better bang for buck.

Quote: In a situation where a CPU render engine (Vray) is used... how does a Quadro improve the software if not viewport?

Unless you are using a CUDA enabled rendering engine, VRay RT or one of the many GPU engines out there these days, it won't matter one iota.

Quote: (PS: And sorry if this is going off topic - feel we're still on same ish subject!)

We're still on. The thread is titled cards technical specs, so I think it's fair game to discuss this stuff
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Last edited by ThE_JacO : 09 September 2013 at 01:10 PM.
 
Old 09 September 2013   #26
I see... (thanks btw - a very detailed and comprehensive post).

So sadly this makes things more complicated... whereas I'd been thinking a gfx card will sort out my viewport, memory allows bigger scenes etc... it seems its more complex.

So. I'm already going to oc my cpu (I'll see what I can get out of it, but if 4.3 is all but guaranteed then that should should be a substantial gain). A memory upgrade (I'm currently on 16GB) is a little out of reach at moment. I think I'll try to test a quadro if I can find one at any of the offices I have contacts in. But If I'm reading your advice correctly it may be wiser to put the money towards a new motherboard / cpu memory upgrade maybe next year?

Heres the thing though... my scenes are complicated, but not massively so. I have a building and surrounding context file for a small suburb in istanbul (3DS max file). The building is complex but the context is just simple mass. In total about 500 000 polys... I've heard of much more complex models made (just at amateur level - not going into Hollywood visualisation complexity), and in the comments on forums etc no one really comments on "god my pc slowed to a halt" etc - In my case there is often a several second delay in general responsiveness. I suppose what I'm asking is: Is this normal? Does everyone just put up with it?

I'm looking for a PC that can run my professional applications smoothly without any frustrating lagging, and at the same time allow me to play top end games in between jobs (I've now got the later thanks to the 780).

Its possible I am modelling in some inefficient way I suppose, I'm largely self taught.
Its also possible I haven's configured my system correctly?

I'm asking loads and I apologise, but you've been helpful and I'm trying to get as much info as possible! Hope you don't mind?!
 
Old 09 September 2013   #27
Hey guys, thanks for the corrections, i've read a little more about Nvidia, and they're not quite the Anti-Christ i imagined them to be. Being on CGS is a bittersweet experience. Bitter because i'm looking at all you professionals, who've probably done CGI since the days of MS-DOS, thats pretty legendary. I see i have a long way to go, but i dont think i can ever have as much experience as you guys, its quite painful. Sweet in the sense there is soo much professional knowledge to assist me whenever i have an issue ( even though i havent gotten a single reply on my first and only thread).

I guess im gonna staart saving, so i can buy Cray TITAN supercomputer and do all 3D work on it. I'll probably be able to buy it a century later ^^. Cheeeeeeeers. Hasta Luego Personas
 
Old 09 September 2013   #28
Hats off for going back over that. It's likely more mature and wiser than what I would have managed when I was at 14 so consider it a good start.
The experience comes with age and surviving adolescence and your twenties, nothing to boast about exactly

Master the software and deal with the hardware if, when and as needed, and you'll be fine.
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Old 09 September 2013   #29
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