Eon (3D Scene) Entry: Scott Monsma

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  01 January 2007
Talking

How to respond, how to respond? First, thanks! and thanks again, you have obviously put a lot of thought into this, and I really appreciate your taking the time to give your comments.

Yes, unfortunately I am near to giving up on this entry, first because I wanted to have a Patricia figure in the scene but my figure modeling skills are almost non-existent (and Stahlberg's Cybergirl V workshop doesn't start until Jan 15!); with the previous deadline, I did not have enough time. Even with the extended time, I don't think I can get the figure done in time. Perhaps I should not worry about that, and just concentrate on doing the knot as best I can.

The knot- after making the first simple spiral knot, I did look online for some surfaces and 'singularities'- Google 'boy surface' and you'll see one type. How to generate these surfaces in Cinema4D though? So I played with some of the curves and nurb sweeps and ended up with the later version, which was very hard to work with. I put an anisotropic texture on just to see something different from a plain reflective surface, I did intend to make the surface more interesting (but also that will make it harder for us to see the shape in the renders :( ). Your idea of converting to polys and then playing with the UV is perfect, exactly what will be needed

The rock wall- actually I think there was a description of the borehole between the 6th and 7th chamber and as I remember it is in an unfiinished form still showing the gouges of the excavation work... I'll look in my copy of the book (different printing than yours perhaps)... so I had played with bump mapping to get the gouges and just a simple black material so far. Again, the texture was planned for 'upgrading'!

The view I would like is toward the 7th chamber, but then the interior of the 7th chamber is nondescript desert scrub, and so it is not very interesting to texture or see rendered; so I had not yet done much in that direction.

Hm, well we do still have two weeks, right? Perhaps you have stepped on the right buttons! (oh yes, the other reason for not continuing- the total lack of comments on this thread, and so many other people doing really nice work, except that a lot of them have no relation to the story/book itself!).

Anyway, I will see what I can do in the next couple of weeks, even if it doesn't get 'finished' enough for the full res entry!

thanks again, you are very inspiring!
(and if I have a business trip to my companies San Diego location, I'll let you know, perhaps someday we will meet!)
cheers- Scott
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  01 January 2007
Originally Posted by milw:
Hm, well we do still have two weeks, right? Perhaps you have stepped on the right buttons! (oh yes, the other reason for not continuing- the total lack of comments on this thread, and so many other people doing really nice work, except that a lot of them have no relation to the story/book itself!).



I'd hate to see you give up, for the very reason you mention above: there are many images being produced for this contest which, although gorgeous, have nothing whatsoever to do with Eon. Your previs matched my picture of the end of the singularity very well, and I think you were one of the few who bothered to read the book and who payed close attention while doing so. I also really liked what you were doing with anisotropic reflections.

I'd strongly encourage you to keep plugging away at your entry. Even if you don't put any human figures in it, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Remember that the idea here is that we are to suppose that the book is to be made into a movie. This being the case, I would expect the people to be played by actors, and only the scenery to be computer generated. I can't speak for Mr. Bear, but my guess would be that he will be more impressed by someone who faithfully depicts the settings from his story than by someone who spends hours perfecting subsurface-scattered skin.

I hope you can keep going, and if you do, I look forward to seeing what you produce next. Best of luck to you.
 
  01 January 2007
Wow YOUR post sure made my day! (Helped me feel very useful )
I am more than glad if what I wrote gave you ANY reason to go on with it…

As I stated in my post… I had great pleasure and motivation from a single render from you… I am just a simple “One person”… but I hope that for even one persons appreciation, you will give it a go!


As for the Boy-Surface…
It should be sort of a variation of the Mobius kettle, where the nozzle of the kettle would stretch into tit’s base, forming an endless path loop to flow along it… The major difference being that it has three entrances rather than one.
Something I personally find to be aesthetically more attractive than the kettle, but none the less it still is just a knot in an almost spherical parameterization.

Maybe we are not talking about the exact same Boy’s Surface, I am a Nerd, but no expert on the matter.
None the less… IF we are talking about the same knot, I guess you may want to give the three caves to the end, and stretch the opposing chamber to eternity…
Wikipedia, and MathWorrld have both given pretty documented calculations of the surface… it should be not as difficult as it was 50 years ago to model it out. I CAN always try to help out if you shall need it.



Originally Posted by vmulligan: I can't speak for Mr. Bear, but my guess would be that he will be more impressed by someone who faithfully depicts the settings from his story than by someone who spends hours perfecting subsurface-scattered skin.
OUCH!
But damn he DOES have a point there actually…

And I would actually have to double most of the post above…
(I guess I had also better start presenting my non-actor pieces of the scene )

To compare to my other pieces I model out.. I am pretty developed in organic modelling, particularly humans or biped characters… So on that subject also, you can always knock on my door.



Black
Ps:This year I am not going to be able to afford going to Siggraph, or sending anyone
But maybe 2008?
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  01 January 2007
Originally Posted by BlackDidThis: As for the Boy-Surface…
It should be sort of a variation of the Mobius kettle, where the nozzle of the kettle would stretch into tit’s base, forming an endless path loop to flow along it… The major difference being that it has three entrances rather than one.
Something I personally find to be aesthetically more attractive than the kettle, but none the less it still is just a knot in an almost spherical parameterization.

Maybe we are not talking about the exact same Boy’s Surface, I am a Nerd, but no expert on the matter.

oh no, I'm even more of Nerd than you! But not much of a mathemetician! I think Mobius kettle = Klein Bottle -- what bothered me about that is the images look like the spout is re-entering through a hole in the side of the tube (even tho there is no physical hole). I don't really see that as a "knot" either- that is why I was trying other shapes beside the first render that you liked so much.

As for a figure, well I do have one started and I can post an image of it- I suppose since she's wearing a vacuum suit, I can just expand the arms, legs and torso and make them wrinkly! Well, that's for if I have any time left; after re-reading the singularity passage again (p73-75 of my Eon/Eternity copy), I think I need more scaffolding support. Your idea of machinery to sustain the singularity in place is also worth investigating though the description in the book doesn't mention it; that doesn't mean it couldn't be there! In Eternity, when they re-make the singularity, there was a lot of new construction and machinery, but that's the sequel!

"The walls of the borehole- rough and grooved with irregular lines- faded into inky blackness." and "She looked up... and saw a wide intrusion of dark rock in the asteroidal metal." So I'd say, metallic texture, rough and scored with some dark basaltic type rock...

duty calls (child to put to bed) but I'll post some more tonight!
cheers- Scott
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  01 January 2007
No, no... That’s not my point...
Earlier I had asked you on why you had changed to the latest form of your knot... and you had told me that it was based on the Boy's Surface.
That’s why I had stated that I may be talking about ANOTHER sort of parameterisation, since I knew of the Surface well, and (really; no offence) your latest versions haven't got too much resemblance to what the Surface was calculated to look like.

And if you take a few steps back and look at it, the piece not only fails to give an image of a knot, it also doesn't feel like piece of the singularity.
Otherwise I really like the amount of complications you introduced... the above stated was the only reason I was so loyal to your earlier post.
I am sure you have a vision and know what you are doing, I just hope that the ending result better blends in with the singularity itself.
(Note; yes it DOES appear to have holes... but if you CAN manipulate the camera angle... In the link I gave in the above post there are lots of views that you feel a knot, but don't see any entrances)


The sustaining construction…
No you are right;
In Eon, he literally puts it like as if it is a display mount in a museum or something... all open and viewable from every angle.
Since your thread, I mostly picture it similar to your construction, though a little more claustrophobic and definitely grey/gunmetal tinted to compare.


To justify what I said in the post... I especially tried to state that it may bring the message over to the viewers better by introducing a sort of sustaining framework ... and also give you something to add drama/story with shall you have the need… self-motivation IS a serious need to be able to work so hard on such projects.

Suits;
I think in the short run much a solution for the space suit may save the day... Hard for us to tell not knowing what she looks like at the moment.
The cool thing is that if you make one good suit, you can get away with having to model out Karen as well



Okay... now leaving you back to your own… I would really like to see the new updates!

This was just a “Bump” demanding your attention,
to make sure you are not putting this aside again

Best of luck!



Black
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  01 January 2007
Thumbs up

Originally Posted by BlackDidThis: ...based on the Boy's Surface. That’s why I had stated that I may be talking about ANOTHER sort of parameterisation, since I knew of the Surface well, and (really; no offence) your latest versions haven't got too much resemblance to what the Surface was calculated to look like.


No problem, mate! I looked at Boy's Surface, but what I posted was not supposed to reproduce that; and I agree, that last 'knot' looks pasted on (because it is!). Anyway I am definitely working on the knot end some more, so you'll see something different soon .

Control structures, I like the idea and am trying some examples; the biggest question is what level of radial symmetry- since Boy's Surface is trigonal (and I interpret the singularity knot to be 3-space folding in on itself so outside of Singularity becomes the inside)- I would think either 3 or 6 fold radial symmetry will be most appropriate.

Thanks for the bump and your insights!
cheers- Scott

(ps "know of the Surface well"... you have played with these before, or at University?)
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Last edited by milw : 01 January 2007 at 05:41 PM. Reason: just a ps
 
  01 January 2007
Originally Posted by milw: Control structures, I like the idea and am trying some examples; the biggest question is what level of radial symmetry- since Boy's Surface is trigonal (and I interpret the singularity knot to be 3-space folding in on itself so outside of Singularity becomes the inside)- I would think either 3 or 6 fold radial symmetry will be most appropriate.

Hadn't thought of that... actually it would work GREAT.
Good observation.

Maybe a ring of nine symetrical masses, restraining a ring of three sustaniers...
(Actually it was a joke.. but as I typed it... heey.. not too bad an idea!)



Black

Ps:
It starts with studying high school in a particularly specialised school, branching additionally into Mathematics and Physics at a more theoretically advanced level...
The story gets weirder from there on…
But in short I have been introduced frequently to non-Orientable surfaces in several acquaintances, including modelling without the aid of 3D softwares.
(I was taught the Klein Bottle as Mobius Kettle (as directly translated to English), I guess being the more homomorphic version of the Mobius strip to the real projective plane.
They had changed it Klein bottle, (again to be directly translated...)
but that was after my time … should tell you something about my age )
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  01 January 2007
Modeling: Boy's Surface melded to singularity



Aha! Having found 3D-XplorMath, I can now export a Boy's surface as an .obj, and bring it into Cinema4D for further modelling! Well worth playing with, tho available for Macintosh only... see http://rsp.math.brandeis.edu:16080/3d-xplormath/

Thanks and a tip 'o the hat to Black, for pushing the right buttons!
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  01 January 2007
Hi Scott, well I'm no math person but I really like what you've done with this last knot. I like the first version too but this is even more interesting. You're taking a scientific approach to this which is really cool - good luck for your next steps
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  01 January 2007
Shading (Textured and lit): Boy's Surface singularity in scene



Here is the Boy's surface with extended singularity, placed into the 7th chamber and the observation cage; a few rough proxies for some control structures as well, to see if that will work.

ps Thanks Gunilla!
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  01 January 2007
The concept is cool .I think it can be add more details and you must in a hurry.keep it up ,good luck.
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  01 January 2007
Shading (Textured and lit): Singularity 9



I'm not going to do a lot more futzing- this seems the best overall angle for seeing the singularity, and the texture went kind of crazy after I aligned the normals. I'm going to start prepping the composite full scale render and make the animation.
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  01 January 2007
Post Effects and Compositing: Final render layers



These are the individual lights rendered out for the final composite. I'm new to this method of working, so we'll see how much I can accomplish! Overall, the initial image is too dark; on my laptop LCD screen it looked OK, but today on my CRT displays I can't even make out the wall of the borehole.
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  01 January 2007
Final Render: The beginning of the Singularity



"It resembled a half-meter-wide pipe made of quicksilver, stretching off to its own vanishing point... If it could be said to reflect at all, it did not behave like a mirror, imaging instead barely recognizable imitations of its surroundings." "Here, the laws of the corridor were twisted into a neat, elongated knot, a kind of spacial umbilicus."

I've used a what is known as "Boys Surface" to represent the knot at the beginning/end of the Singularity. Specifically, it is based on a Bryant-Kusner parameterization; Boy's surface itself is an immersion of the real projective plane in R^3. Boy's surface is single sided and non-orientable, similar to the familiar Mobius strip and Klein bottle. Three "cave entrances" lead to the interior; the three passages intersect at a single triple point (technically not a singularity at which values approach infinity) and suddenly you are on the outside again. Further details (much beyond my understanding!) can be found on the Web, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy's_surface and http://rsp.math.brandeis.edu/3d-xplormath/Surface/boys_bryant-kusner/boys_bryant-kusner.html

It seemed an appropriate shape for the knot at the beginning of the Singularity, where the geometry of space was manipulated to create the Way, where Pi is not our familiar 3.14159265...

I have taken the liberty of stretching the nearly spherical side of the surface, opposite the triple point, into the infinite Singularity- thus the surface itself is infinite yet bounded.
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  01 January 2007
Final Render: The beginning of the Singularity



Software: CINEMA 4D,Photoshop

"It resembled a half-meter-wide pipe made of quicksilver, stretching off to its own vanishing point... If it could be said to reflect at all, it did not behave like a mirror, imaging instead barely recognizable imitations of its surroundings." "Here, the laws of the corridor were twisted into a neat, elongated knot, a kind of spacial umbilicus."

I've used a what is known as "Boys Surface" to represent the knot at the beginning/end of the Singularity. Specifically, it is based on a Bryant-Kusner parameterization; Boy's surface itself is an immersion of the real projective plane in R^3. Boy's surface is single sided and non-orientable, similar to the familiar Mobius strip and Klein bottle. Three "cave entrances" lead to the interior; the three passages intersect at a single triple point (technically not a singularity at which values approach infinity) and suddenly you are on the outside again. Further details (much beyond my understanding!) can be found on the Web, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy's_surface and http://rsp.math.brandeis.edu/3d-xplormath/Surface/boys_bryant-kusner/boys_bryant-kusner.html

It seemed an appropriate shape for the knot at the beginning of the Singularity, where the geometry of space was manipulated to create the Way, where Pi is not our familiar 3.14159265...

I have taken the liberty of stretching the nearly spherical side of the surface, opposite the triple point, into the infinite Singularity- thus the surface itself is infinite yet bounded.

Play Video >>
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