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Old 07-27-2010, 11:52 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances
Well, I'm curious to know why tom's mxm scene straight out of the maxwell demo is noisier than his maxwell version.
Because, I've rendered it until it's noisefree.
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Old 07-27-2010, 11:59 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomNL
Because, I've rendered it until it's noisefree.


Are you saying that this:


Converges to this:


?
 
Old 07-27-2010, 12:15 PM   #63
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Of course. It's just different exposure as I played with the parameters during the render.

-edit: The scene you have doesn't have skydome active as mentioned in the first post. You should turn it on at 2000 cd/m2 @ rgb255. The shared MXS was saved with an old version as zdeno requested it before we make the v2.1, so this setting has not been correctly translated.
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Last edited by tomNL : 07-27-2010 at 12:29 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2010, 12:24 PM   #64
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Watching these exchanges with, of course, quite some interest ... I know that it is intended as a blow-by-blow comparison of "straight rendering" algorithms, but I do wonder whether the same results could not well be achieved through compositing. I presume that this is beyond the intended scope of the challenge.

To my eye, and to be quite frank about it, none of these images are outstanding -- not even the first one. And what is "not outstanding" about it, is the one thing that I instinctively zoom-in on from days as a studio photographer: surface characteristics. Even a "frosted glass" object, properly lit, will have clear, crisp surface roughness that must be portrayed in agonizingly-sharp detail. Even if the surface is "matte," it's got surface highlight. (Just grab any copy of, say, Vanity Fair magazine and study the first twenty pages.)

Look carefully at the shadows that are being cast by the dragon. It's at the usual "two o'clock high" (and the dragon, by the way, is magically floating about a quarter-inch high in the air). So, howcum the dragon is glowing as though it had a light bulb stuffed inside its guts? What is the plausible physical explanation of why the dragon's lower lip, and the tip of his tail, and the underside (but not the top) of his body, should be "positively glowing" in this way? (I mean, "which side of that tail is supposedly pointing directly towards the light? Not that one!")

Why is there no surface definition? The reflection off the surface of the tail is muddy and indistinct, when it ought to be crisp and sharp. The strongest visual impression that I think I should be getting off this "frosted glass" is the light that is bouncing directly off the glass surface.

Okay, okay, I won't argue with math and physics. But, there's not a single one of these renders that I have seen yet which says to my practiced eye, "this is a frosted-glass dragon sitting on a studio table, properly lit and in tack-sharp focus."

Last edited by sundialsvc4 : 07-27-2010 at 12:30 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2010, 12:27 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomNL
Because, I've rendered it until it's noisefree.


You said that you rendered it to SL 21. The image I posted rendered to SL 21. They should have the same level of noise.
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Old 07-27-2010, 12:28 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomNL
Of course. It's just different exposure as I played with the parameters during the render.


The tonemapping is not what is questionable.
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Old 07-27-2010, 12:29 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances
The tonemapping is not what is questionable.

Figured what's going wrong:
The scene you have doesn't have skydome active as mentioned in the first post. You should turn it on at 2000 cd/m2 @ rgb255. The shared MXS was saved with an old version as zdeno requested it before we make the v2.1, so this setting has not been correctly translated.
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Old 07-27-2010, 12:31 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances
You said that you rendered it to SL 21. The image I posted rendered to SL 21. They should have the same level of noise.
Must be the forgotten skydome in the shared scene.
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Old 07-27-2010, 12:34 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomNL
Must be the forgotten skydome in the shared scene.


So the scene you uploaded does not have your settings saved to it.
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Old 07-27-2010, 12:36 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sundialsvc4
"this is a frosted-glass dragon sitting on a studio table, properly lit and in tack-sharp focus."
You're right. Because, it's not. It's sitting on a funny blue ground in the white air illuminated by a very small planar emitter. It would not look different when you match these conditions in real life.
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Old 07-27-2010, 12:39 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances
So the scene you uploaded does not have your settings saved to it.
I was working with a newer version and he wouldn't be able to open the MXS so I made a quaick upload for him. It's only about skydome because, in 2.1 we added 2-color skydome feature so, you should trigger it yourself. The first post clearly mentions skydome, it's not something hidden as a fact.
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Old 07-27-2010, 12:40 PM   #72
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<removed double-post>
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Last edited by tomNL : 07-27-2010 at 01:10 PM.
 
Old 07-27-2010, 01:48 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomNL
I was working with a newer version and he wouldn't be able to open the MXS so I made a quaick upload for him. It's only about skydome because, in 2.1 we added 2-color skydome feature so, you should trigger it yourself. The first post clearly mentions skydome, it's not something hidden as a fact.


Fair enough. I was under the impression that the proof scene would be set up to click and go. I opened it in Studio (eyesore of clutter) and enabled Skydome and Multilight. I like the fact that in the fryrender console, you can control all of those things, and edit materials, and view a shaded viewport and create new camera views.

Since my old Q9450 machine isn't getting a 300 benchmark (112), it will be several hours before I have the results.
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:26 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances
(eyesore of clutter)


Like this?



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Old 07-27-2010, 02:34 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances
I understand your motives tom. I understand that they are not nice ones.


You seem to be implying that yours are somehow better, despite all appearances to the contrary.

Frosted glass is a common real-world material, and thus comparing accuracy in rendering it provides an interesting data point for potential users. If NL's competitors have issues with it, that is something they should address -- for a user who cares about that material, those issues are relevant.

Nothing is stopping you from finding a similar case and encouraging a comparison using that case. Real-world usage of that material will determine its relevancy, of course, but I suspect most users would be interested in knowing what materials create issues for the different unbiased and biased renderers. Heck, doing so might even encourage those renderer's authors to fix those issues and release updates.

Of course, it's easier to just sit and snipe and make personal attacks, but doing so won't really benefit your favored platform, nor do much to discourage users from drawing value from the comparisons in this thread.
 
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