Gnomon School of Visual Effects Unveils Gnomon Studios

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Old 07 July 2010   #61
Originally Posted by leigh: Eh, what? If they're good enough to be working on someone's film, then they're good enough to be getting paid for it. Simple as that.

Totally right and simple to know
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Old 07 July 2010   #62
It all depends on the output. If the work is total unusable junk then it's "zero pay" right up to brilliant then "good pay". This issue will balance itself out, because I'm sure they don't want to alienate the very industry they are trying to supply students to.

From the looks of things it will be quite good quality effects work, since they have a high standard just to get in and some very high profile instructors, so I think a slightly lower rate for the final product than the comparable effects house would be fair on all concerned and appealing to the potential clients who are weighing up the risk of using students. And that slightly lower rate would be passed down to the employee/students in the form of a slightly lower wage. That would make it extremely attractive to all concerned, instead of possibly aggravating to everyone.

Judging from the (completely understandable) reaction here, I reckon if they weren't considering paying something, they'd be changing their minds fast......
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Old 07 July 2010   #63
Originally Posted by leigh: Eh, what? If they're good enough to be working on someone's film, then they're good enough to be getting paid for it. Simple as that.


And at the end of the day, that's really the bottom line.

Sure, there's always 'ropes' to learn the first while at a new job, but if you're honestly not worth being paid you really shouldn't be there in the first place. Tbqh, to me, the idea that I would still 'need' to do some pro-bono work after spending $60k on 'the best school' (as many refer to it) before being employable is quite humorous. I mean, isn't that kind of the whole point of spending the big bucks on the ritzy school in hollywood? If all I'm worth being paid is free, I can surely self teach to that level for far cheaper. In my experience, paying dues usually amounted to doing the shit jobs that no one else wants to........but you still got paid for it.

But...both myself & everyone in this thread I think are just tossing around speculations. I've still yet to see any info on the 'specifics' of what they're actually doing. For all we know it could be quite innocent, it's difficult to say without the specifics.
 
Old 07 July 2010   #64
Originally Posted by spindraft: But...both myself & everyone in this thread I think are just tossing around speculations. I've still yet to see any info on the 'specifics' of what they're actually doing. For all we know it could be quite innocent, it's difficult to say without the specifics.


Off Gnomon's own website:

They've worked on Fringe

They claim to have done work on Green Lantern
 
Old 07 July 2010   #65
Originally Posted by leigh: Eh, what? If they're good enough to be working on someone's film, then they're good enough to be getting paid for it. Simple as that.


It's not as simple as that. There are lots of people out there that are good enough to work but won't get hired because they lack the work experience. This is a way to get this. I don't like the idea that the students might still be paying Gnomon for it (if that is the case) AND Gnomon getting paid for the work. If on the other hand some of the money flows back to the involved students I don't see this as a bad thing.

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Old 07 July 2010   #66
Originally Posted by Wiro: It's not as simple as that. There are lots of people out there that are good enough to work but won't get hired because they lack the work experience. This is a way to get this. I don't like the idea that the students might still be paying Gnomon for it (if that is the case) AND Gnomon getting paid for the work. If on the other hand some of the money flows back to the involved students I don't see this as a bad thing.

Wiro

Agreed. I know a few friends with a lot of talent that have had no luck because of lack of experience. So chances like these are good to get them some experience even if it means they have to pay for it. Unfortunately with the economy as bad as it is, companies can now do things like this and students don't have much choice but work for free or even pay to work.
 
Old 07 July 2010   #67
The economy isn't that bad, actually it is better than ever before and even in times as the economy was in a really bad shape, humans didn't need to pay their employee.

If their is no job offer, you can pay as much as you want and you wont get any.
You think modeling a few assets here and there for a professionell project will be enough to fill a job offer with at least 2-5 years production experiences?

You shouldn't be afraid that you wont find a job after graduating, if you are good then you will find a job, with or without production experiences. Maybe your friend just hadn't enough talent or he didn't look for work at other places.
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Old 07 July 2010   #68
Originally Posted by helios01: Unfortunately with the economy as bad as it is, companies can now do things like this and students don't have much choice but work for free or even pay to work.


That's got to be some of the most twisted logic I've seen in quite a while.

Please explain, how the state of the economy forces someone to work for free or worse pay to work? That's just bass ackwards and doesn't make any sense at all.

Additionally, of course they have a choice. Assuming you have $$ to blow, paying to work is simply 'the easy choice' if all you're after is 'experience' on a resume. You can hop online and buy degrees from imaginary universities too. But it's not just about being good enough to do the work, which is basically all an internship proves. It's about being the best candidate for the job.

You put a guy w/ a quickie unpaid internship & a 'good enough to do the job' reel on the shortlist with a guy who has no 'industry' experience & a 'holy crap that's awesome reel', it's fair to say the latter is going to receive more attention.

Point is, sure, unpaid interning may be an option for those who can afford it.....& in that circumstance I can see how it would be the path of least resistance. But trying to suggest that there's few/no other options is just silly.
 
Old 07 July 2010   #69
I don't think this is a case of the students being taken advantage of. We did the same thing at DAVE School, the final assignment is the whole class working on a film project for a real client. In my classes case it was CrossGen Entertainment. Sure the client gets work done for free, but the student also learns what it's like to work for an actual client. We got lucky, our client came by to check on the progress every few weeks and loved what we did but I understand some other classes have had much harsher clients. Aside from the learning experience when you graduate you can put it on your resume as your first job. Many grads go for months or longer before they get their first job for their resume.

Our short was presented to Warner Bros. to try and have a movie made of it. I'm not sure how many grads can say that about their class project.
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Old 07 July 2010   #70
Originally Posted by spindraft: That's got to be some of the most twisted logic I've seen in quite a while.

Please explain, how the state of the economy forces someone to work for free or worse pay to work? That's just bass ackwards and doesn't make any sense at all.

Additionally, of course they have a choice. Assuming you have $$ to blow, paying to work is simply 'the easy choice' if all you're after is 'experience' on a resume. You can hop online and buy degrees from imaginary universities too. But it's not just about being good enough to do the work, which is basically all an internship proves. It's about being the best candidate for the job.

You put a guy w/ a quickie unpaid internship & a 'good enough to do the job' reel on the shortlist with a guy who has no 'industry' experience & a 'holy crap that's awesome reel', it's fair to say the latter is going to receive more attention.

Point is, sure, unpaid interning may be an option for those who can afford it.....& in that circumstance I can see how it would be the path of least resistance. But trying to suggest that there's few/no other options is just silly.

I was referring to programs like this and unpaid internships, where you pay to learn usually by way of loans. It's basically working for experience or degrees, since companies are currently less willing to hire. Talented students won't get jobs because they've not proven themselves and companies are taking less risks due to the economy.

With all the layoffs, it appears there's a bigger talent pool to choose from than companies hiring. So being good alone doesn't seem to cut it in our current economy. It's not so easy when you're a student trying to find a job and have no luck because most companies require professional experience. Then your choices narrow and suddenly you have to do what it takes to make yourself marketable (gain experience). There really doesn't seem to be much choice. What are the other options the students have?

Last edited by helios01 : 07 July 2010 at 09:39 PM.
 
Old 07 July 2010   #71
Originally Posted by meleseDESIGN: The economy isn't that bad, actually it is better than ever before ...



Not in the United States.
Quote: There were 472,000 initial jobless claims filed in the week ended June 26, up 13,000 from an upwardly revised 459,000 in the previous week, the Labor Department said.


http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/01/new...laims/index.htm

Quote: MASS LAYOFFS -- MAY 2010
Employers took 1,412 mass layoff actions in May that resulted in the separa-
tion of 135,789 workers, ...

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/mmls.nr0.htm

Quote: "Unfortunately, it looks like it's going to be a slow, painful grinding improvement in hiring," said Carl Riccadonna, senior U.S. economist for Deutsche Bank.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/01/new...tlook/index.htm

It's not a good time for students.
 
Old 07 July 2010   #72
To clarify, what I was initially pointing out is the paradox of your statement. Claiming a bad economy is justification to not only work for free, but pay to work, is self defeating. What does a bad economy mean? It means jobs are scarce -> thus you're going to pay to work. But.......what is the purpose of a job? To make money so that you can pay your bills and survive (at the least). Saying that this is your only option suggests that you somehow prioritize having a job over surviving, for nothing more than the simple act of 'having a job'. A 'job' is a tool, not an end all purpose in life.

Originally Posted by helios01: I was referring to programs like this and unpaid internships, where you pay to learn usually by way of loans. It's basically working for experience or degrees


And that would be called school. So which are we talking about here.......experience or degrees? There's a difference.

Originally Posted by helios01: since companies are currently less willing to hire. Talented students won't get jobs because they've not proven themselves and companies are taking less risks due to the economy.

With all the layoffs, it appears there's a bigger talent pool to choose from than companies hiring. So being good alone doesn't seem to cut it in our current economy. It's not so easy when you're a student trying to find a job and have no luck because most companies require professional experience. Then your choices narrow and suddenly you have to do what it takes to make yourself marketable (gain experience).


This is nothing new, regardless of the economy, nor is it unique to the vfx/or gaming industries. Almost all companies will ask for experience for any job higher on the rung than sacking groceries, it's a simple fact of life. You just have to get out there and pound the pavement, experience or not. If you're worth your salt someone somewhere will snatch you up. If you immediately strike off everything that asks for experience, then yeah you won't get far as you're giving up before you even got started. Additionally, it doesn't hurt to broaden the prospects either. If some of these guys think they're going to finish class and then pop over to ILM for 70k a year without having ever held down a job, they'll likely be disappointed. There's many various areas of employment though where the same skills can be applied, & while they may not be the romantic ideal, they will pay the bills in the mean time.

Originally Posted by helios01: There really doesn't seem to be much choice. What are the other options the students have?


The same options people had before these schools existed. There's nothing stopping students for getting together and putting together their own short, or mini-game, etc. If you document the process it should demonstrate your abilities just as well as saying "I interned for x months at x studio". If you're not going to get paid anything for either anyway, you may as well invest your time in the option that has the possibility of paying returns in the future (because you're developing your own i.p.). Working for free you are essentially giving your time away to contribute to that benefit for someone else.

All that said, I don't mean to say interning (for free) is just totally bad and never do it. I'm sure it's worked out good 'n well for many people. But I find the idea that some of you guys might think that it is your only option at all very disturbing.
 
Old 07 July 2010   #73
Originally Posted by philnolan3d: I don't think this is a case of the students being taken advantage of. We did the same thing at DAVE School, the final assignment is the whole class working on a film project for a real client. In my classes case it was CrossGen Entertainment.

Our short was presented to Warner Bros. to try and have a movie made of it. I'm not sure how many grads can say that about their class project.


There's your difference ..

The project you worked on was not well funded, like Fringe or Green Lantern. It sounds like the work was being done as an addition to help sell it for development. In your case, everyone wins. CrossGen got their work done and the DAVE School students got to work with new and raw material under a production schedule.

In the case of work being done for Fox Studios (Fringe) or Warner Brothers (Green Lantern), Gnomon students were unpaid while Gnomon Studios was. Call it what you will .. indentured servitude, slave labor or greedy altruism. Just don't forget to call it illegal.
 
Old 07 July 2010   #74
Ernesto, you are so afraid just because you read some numbers in the news.
Humans do awful things out of fear, paying someone to work for him, instead of getting paid, is such an awful thing.
I'd say, don't panic on the titanic. Finish your school, maybe make an free internship for a few weeks to get some experience how the workflow in a production environment works, coincident build a good portfolio, apply for a job again and again till someone picks you up, then make experience and put them on your resume, after a few years you can now try to open the next door and apply for higher position jobs, show your resume, portfolio and sign up.


As spindraft said already, you wont work at ILM or a similar house number for the next few years, that is probably for sure - but there are many other smaller house numbers where you can beginn to work on your career.
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Old 07 July 2010   #75
I'm sure it is innocent and they are just trying to offer something that really justifies their position as one of the top schools. Guaranteed first job is a win for anyone wanting to know their money went to good use, even if not especially those who mortgaged their houses to pay for it and support themselves during the study periods. The wealthier students won't necessarily care about the money, or possibly even if they get a job at the end, but those who have made a massive lifelong sacrifice NEED that final outcome. I'm sure they're not so happy about not getting paid, but they'd rather have a guaranteed job at the end than a few extra bucks along the way. All part of that commitment, however risky it is.

Still, it's not like it would break the bank to share some of the spoils and the PR alone would make the school even more appealing. Imagine the boost to your confidence knowing your final year or whatever would involve earning some cash! That's a nice incentive. Generally the good vibe in the industry would be worth the drop in overall annual revenue for the school. Happy students, happy potential employers. It would really set them apart from the non-paying schools that might not be able to afford the sacrifice and make them a truly elite and attractive proposition.
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