Gnomon School of Visual Effects Unveils Gnomon Studios

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Old 06 June 2010   #31
there's a word for this and it starts with ex and ends with ploitation.

then again, i Guess the world is always gonna be full of gullible kids eager to be taken advantage of. lets just hope studios dont start following suit, hey? :(
 
Old 06 June 2010   #32
Originally Posted by KrzysztofFus:
Pretty soon studios like MPC and Sony Imageworks are gonna be saying "Hey, either take the pay cut or I'll just bring in some students that will pay ME to do the work."


I think you're forgetting that the work a student does (in terms of quality, speed, ability to make exact, specific changes) is not equal to the work a professional from MPC or Imageworks does.
 
Old 06 June 2010   #33
Originally Posted by th3ta: I think you're forgetting that the work a student does (in terms of quality, speed, ability to make exact, specific changes) is not equal to the work a professional from MPC or Imageworks does.


Debatable. I personally know people who left school and became art directors, lead technical directors and other senior jobs right out of school. Of course MOST students leaving school cant match up to someone working in the industry for years but a special few can.

I'm just afraid that Gnomon Studio will set a standard for the VFX industry. I've seen companies play the free intern game before. Mid level and senior artists train the interns, they get fired. Interns do their jobs for free under the promise of paid work. Supervised under one Art Director.
 
Old 06 June 2010   #34
The students are paying the studio for the privilege of working on their for-profit projects? This is a level of evil genius beyond my understanding. All hail our new money making overlords!

Who wants to come mow my lawn? you can pay me in monthly instalments if you like.
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Old 06 June 2010   #35
Originally Posted by th3ta: I think you're forgetting that the work a student does (in terms of quality, speed, ability to make exact, specific changes) is not equal to the work a professional from MPC or Imageworks does.


You guys who keep saying this are forgetting one very important thing...when it comes to quality people are willing to overlook a lot when the price tag is free!

Ask a producer if they'll take a good looking fx shot for X amount of dollars or a passable fx shot for free Or a hell of a lot cheaper and then see how long you'll keep your job.

Last edited by Maxim_311 : 06 June 2010 at 05:15 PM.
 
Old 06 June 2010   #36
Originally Posted by KrzysztofFus: Debatable. I personally know people who left school and became art directors, lead technical directors and other senior jobs right out of school. Of course MOST students leaving school cant match up to someone working in the industry for years but a special few can.

I'm just afraid that Gnomon Studio will set a standard for the VFX industry. I've seen companies play the free intern game before. Mid level and senior artists train the interns, they get fired. Interns do their jobs for free under the promise of paid work. Supervised under one Art Director.


Yeah there's always exceptions to the rule. I've come across a few myself.

Another point I'd like to make is that while everyone likes to blame these studios and companies who are "taking advantage", you have to remember it's the students who are willing to do this work. If it was that big of an issue for them, and everyone resisted it, then you wouldn't see stuff like this happening.
 
Old 06 June 2010   #37
If there weren't a Gnomon School, there weren't any Gnomon students and no offer for such an internal internship. If Gnomon makes a lot of money with the students work, they should invest in the school. Otherwise it would be really criminal if Gnomon Director A. Alvarez or the teachers at Gnomon make a little extra money for themself through student's work.
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Old 06 June 2010   #38
Originally Posted by Maxim_311: You guys who keep saying this are forgetting one very important thing...when it comes to quality people are willing to overlook a lot when the price tag is free!

Ask a producer if they'll take a good looking fx shot for X amount of dollars or passable fx shot for free Or a hell of a lot cheaper and then see how long you'll keep your job.


This is exactly what Im talking about.
 
Old 06 June 2010   #39
There are quite a few studios and television broadcaster which wouldn't exist anymore without interns. I have heard storys about "companys" which had more interns in house as professional workers. It is a sensible topic!

Originally Posted by superhooman: there's a word for this and it starts with ex and ends with ploitation.
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Old 06 June 2010   #40
Originally Posted by th3ta: Yeah there's always exceptions to the rule. I've come across a few myself.

Another point I'd like to make is that while everyone likes to blame these studios and companies who are "taking advantage", you have to remember it's the students who are willing to do this work. If it was that big of an issue for them, and everyone resisted it, then you wouldn't see stuff like this happening.


The issue with this is that its the senior artists who are saying DERP DERP PAY YUR DEWS DERP.

I've only been in one situation where a senior level artist walked to management and threatened to quit if all interns weren't paid. They then decided to pay the interns.

Believe me, personally I will only work for pay now. But two or three years ago it was different.

And the biggest reason that students severely undercut themselves is because no one tells them what standard rates are in this industry. They leave school not knowing whether a good paying job pays 10$ an hr or 40$ an hr.

The Gnomon Studio perpetuates this problem.

Last edited by KrzysztofFus : 06 June 2010 at 05:32 PM.
 
Old 06 June 2010   #41
In an American context, this stuff is illegal.



The slaves were cotton interns.


We have all of the laws in place that we need, they just aren't being enforced.
 
Old 06 June 2010   #42
Originally Posted by Maxim_311: You guys who keep saying this are forgetting one very important thing...when it comes to quality people are willing to overlook a lot when the price tag is free!

Ask a producer if they'll take a good looking fx shot for X amount of dollars or a passable fx shot for free Or a hell of a lot cheaper and then see how long you'll keep your job.


But it still if the end result looks like Hoodwinked (or much worse) will Shane Acker really stand behind it? Or if it takes *forever* to get up to a quality standard thats weird too. Remember this is not some overzealous 'school-driven' production here-there is a pretty big name involved.
 
Old 06 June 2010   #43
Originally Posted by Maxim_311: You guys who keep saying this are forgetting one very important thing...when it comes to quality people are willing to overlook a lot when the price tag is free!

Ask a producer if they'll take a good looking fx shot for X amount of dollars or a passable fx shot for free Or a hell of a lot cheaper and then see how long you'll keep your job.


I dunno, I think producers know they get what they pay for. They also know what kind of quality they can expect from well known studios as opposed to free student interns. And in the world of feature film fx, I just don't see "passable fx" working in most instances.
 
Old 06 June 2010   #44
Originally Posted by circusboy: But it still if the end result looks like Hoodwinked (or much worse) will Shane Acker really stand behind it? Or if it takes *forever* to get up to a quality standard thats weird too. Remember this is not some overzealous 'school-driven' production here-there is a pretty big name involved.


The thing is though the money people are not the creative people most of the time and sometimes money and not quality is the deciding factor. And quality is always a matter of degrees. Sometimes passable has to be enough.

But again...when the price is free people will accept a lot...and will wait the extra time. And when this happens our industry suffers.

Last edited by Maxim_311 : 06 June 2010 at 06:25 PM.
 
Old 06 June 2010   #45
There's a basic problem with this .. its illegal

Gnomon is basically using students .. who paid for the high-level education Gnomon can impart .. as a labor force without any compensation. Its one thing to have Shane Acker there and film material and use it inside a schedule that mimics a production schedule. FXPHD uses this model with great success.

What Gnomon has done is create a new Vfx Studio and will be competing with the mid to high level companies for work on Film and TV productions. And, they're going to use students to do the work. Students who've paid to be there and are eager to get "big name" credits on their resumes and reels. Since they don't have to pay the students, they will undercut studios who do.

Now, lets speculate. They will be awarded a lot of new projects and will do great work. In the process, other studios will have to try to match the bids Gnomon will be making. Some will fold and some will scale their workforce back. Students at Gnomon will create remarkable imagery, load their reels with said art and go into the field to find there isn't work to do.

Is it illegal? According to what Cyndia wrote in the LA Times , it sure seems to be:
[...] pitfalls lurk for both students and the places they work when it comes to unpaid internships. Even well-meaning small-business owners can run afoul of labor laws regarding these temporary positions


Many small-business owners know that unpaid internships should offer training and supervision. Most, though, are unaware of the six criteria the Labor Department highlighted as guidelines for for-profit companies in April.


Basically, those criteria say training must be similar to that given in an educational environment and must be for the benefit of the intern. The interns must not displace other workers and must be closely supervised.



I see two solutions:

* Pay those that work. Class credit is great, but nothing would teach the students the value of the hours and skills more than a paycheck.

* Create your own work and leave the production work to production facilities. It seems to be the right thing to do for the students, as well as the industry as a whole.
 
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