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Old 06-25-2010, 02:24 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mic_Ma
Being a school of sorts I wonder if they use educational or commercial licences for their professional projects.


Good point, though I'm confident that's crossed their mind. Certainly the 'studio' has an independent set of licenses.

About the 'paid' thing. Sure experience is worth something, however, labor is labor....period. If the project itself is not for profit, fine, but otherwise it's merely giving your money away to work for free.

Also, if they're not actually paying these people (emphasis on 'if', as I've not seen any definitive evidence that this is the case), what are they saying about their own school? Are you going to tell me, that an advanced student in the $65k program still needs a bit of free interning to be worthy of a real job? By outward appearances it doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their program if that's the case.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike gnomon, but it might be in their best interest to be very careful with how they handle this thing..........b/c they're walking a very thin line.
 
Old 06-27-2010, 06:24 AM   #17
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The school I went to 15 years ago did this type of thing, it is nothing new. Unpaid or low paid work with students have been around since the beginning of time (used to be called an apprenticeship). It's not a bad thing. Student's are not that productive, especially when you have lots of them. You get to a point where the paid employees spend more time training and fixing student work then actually getting any work done themselves. You loose money with too much green labor.

Essentially Someone is doing Gnomon a favor by giving them a few shots here or there, I highly doubt they are getting rich or putting a company out of business on something like this.

As long as students are not being abused(which I highly doubt) I chalk this up to paying your dues.
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:44 AM   #18
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So it's basically like the block 3 classes at DAVE School.
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Old 06-30-2010, 02:53 PM   #19
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Working For Nothin’ And Getting The VFX For Free

Gnomon School of Visual Effects recently announced that they are starting a division called Gnomon Studios. Students will get to work on feature films in the hopes that the experience will give them a competitive edge in finding a job.

It sounds like a noble idea at first, but then you hear stories about the students like this:

… I talked to the intern who works here. He is no longer a student and did work on X for about 10 weeks. He said the students didn’t like it because they had to PAY to work on the show.

I told him that there might be a case for them to get paid but he was hesitant because he doesn’t want to burn bridges. He said it would be awesome to get paid for the work he did. He thinks it would be alot of money. …



Continue reading article for more at http://vfxsoldier.wordpress.com/201...e-vfx-for-free/

This kind of thing is very troubling to me and a lot of other people I know. There has been the problem of people working for cheap or free to grab experience...but now they got students PAYING to work on projects that they themselves should be getting paid for. This is just a whole 'nother level of WTF?!

This type of thing not only hurts the students who are paying to work on a project...but the artists/studios who are displaced by the free labor.
 
Old 06-30-2010, 03:30 PM   #20
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Not sure how I feel about this. Part of me says yeah, they're taking advantage of naive students. The other part says, it is a great learning experience for them. Also, there is a big difference between the work a professional can do, and the work a student does. Not paying students is not the same as not paying a professional who has been in the industry for years.


Kinda reminds me of the college athlete debate. College football/basketball brings in tens of MILLIONS of dollars for the school and coach staff. Yet the student athletes, who are largely responsible for all that income, are not paid a single penny.
 
Old 06-30-2010, 03:32 PM   #21
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Tricky one there. One one hand it IS nice to work on a triple A production while graduating. On the other hand some other SOB might actually receive a salary for the work you are doing for free.

Considering you pay a lot of cash for the Gnomon studies it IS rather cheeky. On the other hand, as long as they are forcing no one to participate in their short films you should be free to participate in other projects. If these projects are part of the curriculum and have to be absolved, then that is not a good practice

Any more information here? Maybe a comment from Mr. Alvarez himself? Might help to clear some things up, before the flamers capture this thread.
 
Old 06-30-2010, 03:32 PM   #22
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I am merging this new thread with the original.
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Last edited by leigh : 06-30-2010 at 03:35 PM.
 
Old 06-30-2010, 03:36 PM   #23
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I haven't read the articles but you would have to assume the quality of the work done would be to a professional standard, which is impossible. It is very difficult to get a good internship and they are worth gold. Your stuff gets used then you have a bang entry in your cv, that counts. I think just about every company asks for experience these days.

Someone saying they think their work is worth a lot is, well, something I have heard often and have never seen.

If you are one of those student on a gnomon internship, and are reading this thread, network your bee-hind off, I implore you!

Cheers
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Old 06-30-2010, 03:42 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by th3ta
Kinda reminds me of the college athlete debate. College football/basketball brings in tens of MILLIONS of dollars for the school and coach staff. Yet the student athletes, who are largely responsible for all that income, are not paid a single penny.


I may be wrong about this so please correct me if that's the case, but aren't those hotshot sports star students usually on fully paid scholarships? In which case, they're getting an education in exchange for their participation in sport.

Personally, if I was a student at Gnomon, I wouldn't take part in this. I find the idea of paying exorbitant fees to go to a school and then working on a commercial project rather disturbing myself. I have no issue with short term internships for students, but I wouldn't consider this an internship at all because interns don't pay the studio to get that experience.
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Old 06-30-2010, 03:46 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanga
I haven't read the articles but you would have to assume the quality of the work done would be to a professional standard, which is impossible. It is very difficult to get a good internship and they are worth gold. Your stuff gets used then you have a bang entry in your cv, that counts. I think just about every company asks for experience these days.

Someone saying they think their work is worth a lot is, well, something I have heard often and have never seen.

If you are one of those student on a gnomon internship, and are reading this thread, network your bee-hind off, I implore you!

Cheers

Not impossible-but maybe has to filter out only the 'very best' in class?! I mean just look at this schools work?!
http://www.gobelins.fr/galerie/animation/
World class-and done by students. In this case the stories are developed by the students as well. But I am curious how they get the quality and consistancy of work so strong (from again students).

Back on topic. Hmm-overall this is a tough one-because yes students might be paying to work on a production (that potentialy will profit). But then again they might be 'buying' the opportunity to get both top quality demo reel content and pipeline experience.
Both of which get jobs. And very few schools can offer it. Probably gives you a serious advantage over most other CG grads out there. Almost like 'graduating' with 1-2 years production experience under your belt...

Last edited by circusboy : 06-30-2010 at 03:55 PM.
 
Old 06-30-2010, 03:49 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
I may be wrong about this so please correct me if that's the case, but aren't those hotshot sports star students usually on fully paid scholarships? In which case, they're getting an education in exchange for their participation in sport.


It's true that they are most likely on a fully paid sports scholarship, but I think the main point of the debate is that the value of that scholarship pales in comparison to all the millions that they bring in. Head football coaches for the big schools can make over a million a year. Granted, that's with like a 300k base salary, plus TV/radio deals which brings the total up a lot. I'm not sure if the students can make the same TV/radio deals or not and get paid for that. But either way, the value of the star athlete's 4 year scholarship isn't equal to the revenue they bring in.

Last edited by th3ta : 06-30-2010 at 03:52 PM.
 
Old 06-30-2010, 03:52 PM   #27
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Yeah th3ta, but isn't that a fact of life in the professional arena too? ;-) I mean, unless you're a top corporate dog, you're always going to be working for someone who is making loads of money off you.
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Old 06-30-2010, 03:53 PM   #28
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They are being taken advantage of, but you also get what you pay for. Student work is always going to be of a lower quality.

Ask your same friend in ten years if he thinks the work he is doing now is worth "alot of money". If he has wised up and improved his skill by then he will certainly see it was not.
Did these students wake up one day, mid way through this course and realize where they were and what they were doing wasn't getting them paid? I am positive they knew this info going in.
 
Old 06-30-2010, 04:05 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Yeah th3ta, but isn't that a fact of life in the professional arena too? ;-) I mean, unless you're a top corporate dog, you're always going to be working for someone who is making loads of money off you.



Yeah, I guess life's unfair.
 
Old 06-30-2010, 04:06 PM   #30
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So let me get this straight.

Gnomon School just opened a studio where graduating students from the Gnomon School pay money to work on feature films for free? That makes me cringe.

Pretty soon studios like MPC and Sony Imageworks are gonna be saying "Hey, either take the pay cut or I'll just bring in some students that will pay ME to do the work."
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