200+ Women In L.A.’s Animation Ind Demand Studios End Sexual Harassment In Workplace

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  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by Alice: Then why are you suggesting that I should stop talking when I am on topic?

Where did I suggest that?
 
  3 Weeks Ago
I am very proud of you guys.

I KNOW this is a touchy subject, but I have seen good arguments presented.

I posted this  thead because WE NEED to talk about it.
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  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by RobertoOrtiz: I am very proud of you guys.

I KNOW this is a touchy subject, but I have seen good arguments presented.

I posted this  thead because WE NEED to talk about it.

I'm sure that guy who's tread got closed thought the same thing... you know, him being an actual victim of it and all that
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by ACiD80: Where did I suggest that?
You did ask if she was trolling. Which isn't exactly a high-five.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by circusboy: You did ask if she was trolling. Which isn't exactly a high-five.

Well, just look at what that picture she referred to is saying... then read my reply to it again and look at .
Not even close to asking her (or suggesting) to shut up...
Let's just add this: the pot calling the kettle black.

Last edited by ACiD80 : 3 Weeks Ago at 07:28 PM.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by ACiD80: Well, just look at what that picture she referred to is saying... then read my reply to it again and look at .
Not even close to asking her (or suggesting) to shut up...
Let's just add this: the pot calling the kettle black.
Let me put it in clear text for you:
Quote: Men get sexually assaulted, men get abused, men have toxic gender stereotypes that they are expected to live
up to. this is a problem, and I am more than willing to have
discussions about this and talk about what can/should be done to change
these things etc if you bring it up as its own topic.
HOWEVER, if you bring these things up as an attempt to override
discussions about women, I will not listen to you. If you really cared
about men’s issues you’d bring it up at other times, not only when we’re
discussing women. That’s not you caring about men’s issues, that’s you
not wanting to talk about women’s issues because you want everything to
be about men.
It is simple, whenever sexual abuse against women comes up, there is always someone who cries "foul" and "nazi feminist" and "this happens to men too" as if one bad thing justifies the existence of the other. Yes, abuse against men happens, it is a problem.  And if this have been up on the forums, talk it out with the moderators and don't take it out on the issue of women being harassed.
Yes, circumcision (as mentioned) is a much needed debate to have with parents, and when it comes to that, I'm the first one to through my 2 cents in and say that I think it is abuse. But there can be more than one conversation going on at the same time, just stay on topic and debate other topics when they are brought up on their own.

I see this as exactly on topic. And telling someone "are you a troll?" "that is naive" "this has been discussed and it was off topic" or suggest that I deviate from the rest of the people on the subject of what is harassment and what is flirting is not encouraging a conversation. It is very much perceived as you trying to just shut me down.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
I think Alice has a valid point.
And I can appreciate the gist of  her quote.

And really the first reply in this thread went *way* off topic. Case in point.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Robert I think reaching out to Dawn and DIsney or one of the members http://womeninanimation.org/ would be a good idea as this topic is pretty important and should make a useful resource. I will pull some local Arist in as well.

My experience (Not advice but rather areas to get conversation started in a direction that may help or better educate myself and others here)

Maybe starting out with a list of good and bad examples, not just what is considered sexual harassment,  but also what options are there for people to help when events happen. A list of  what is good and bad manners and common sense also helps. This also helps the topic of what crosses over from poor social skills to harassment.
In my experience many artist focused on work  can easily miss events if they are not involved or in the circle of conversation, don't engage in water cooler talk or simply put headphones on and punch in and out of the office.  On one occasion a friend was frequently overly descriptive and flirtatious with a female co worker of mine. They went to lunch together everyday and their relationship seemed from the outside to be close until one day the female friend explained she needed help getting him to tone down his pursuit. This helps a lot when artist that are being harassed, share early on what is happening for others to jump in and help before it becomes a more difficult situation. "Hey man just letting you know you're coming across pretty vulgar and aggressive you don't want to cross any lines for your friendship or job" There are office romances, romances that end, affairs and reverse sexual harassment not all of these create a environment where bystanders know where to interact or help. Early interactions can prevent mistaken behavior from ending up in the HR office. Early interaction can also help keep an eye on behavior and give valuable advice and help with how to deal and not accept behavior. If you are unaware yourself if someone is harassing you or just oblivious its not a bad idea to grab a neutral party or friend and confront said offender in a constructive way. Hey just want to let you know this is crossing some lines or makes me uncomfortable. If it's minor or mistaken behavior that can often improve the situation for everyone. Other circumstances should send you straight to HR ( common sense, manners, harassment

  Harassment is not always obvious or understood when it happens unless you are in some way made aware of it,  or by somehow unintentionally offending someone.  I do think this industry, as in many industries dominated by males that Women can at times be presented with a work life more challenging than men because of social IQ. Women I have conversed with often speak of constantly maintaining a wall of any kind of  fun,  goofy, or close relationships because so often it can misconstrued as flirtation or develop rumors that can lead to harassment in their terms making them all business all the time. 

I also think the topic branches off to constructive areas that need more general knowledge as well. Not just educating studios/men on what harassment is but also educating artist on how to make as much, or more than their peers whatever age / sex, How to evolve beyond the role you were originally inspired by or maintain an edge or upcoming talent.   

One example being Contract Negotiation.  
I know great artist that earned less money than their peers because they simply took offers each time. They switched studios without any plan other than asking for a little more than what they were making at previous studios.  in the past 5 years I have helped about 25 artist that have called to ask for help renegotiation their contracts on almost every occasion the conversation started with I think they are paying me less because I'm _____________ Which I reply that may be the case but let's start from the beginning.  When did you ask for your 90day/ First/ Annual / Title change raise? Did your hours, responsibilities change? if they did, were you compensated, if you weren't did you ask to be? if  you were did you negotiate more? Another HUGE mistake is thinking you are paid more than others. One of the best tools a studio has is to tell you, you are special and not to share your raise or income with others because they are giving you special treatment 7 times out of 10 you wont be making more you'll be making less hiding your advantage from your peers while getting significantly less.  Some studios have a targeted set range of what the high and low end is for a position others are more gunslinger and can have a vast range of employees at different rates doing the same job. Another huge mistake is to think that the better Artist will make more by Default. The most successful career artist are the artist that understand how to negotiate and maintain a history of elevated income. I know many industry legends that are making far less that what they were 5 to 10 years ago because they didn't have a plan or the knowledge of how to establish these things. of the 25 artist I have helped, Most but not all were dealing with missing one of the above elements. Many times this leads to having to quit their current job because they have maintained the lower income for so long that it is near impossible to the employing studio to provide the needed increase and a more effective way is to apply at the studios competitor.

I know a lot of  artist in LA have experienced starting out a job at a new studio and week one receiving  fb messages or text from artist they haven't met or didn't give their number to. sometimes they return from lunch with a post it note on their desk?

A list of safe and Unsafe behavior 

Do feel free add someone to facebook or linkedin and say. Hi excited you are at Disney now. Big fan of your art and looking forward to the work you do here. 

DO NOT send them 20 new FB messages immediately following. 

Do be inclusive,  invite people to parties or events that peers are attending.

DO NOT send them the invite on their personal cell phone number you got from the company roster.

For artist working around the world what are things you have found may be offensive to others or you are offended by that deal with where you are from
Things like 

Personal space.
How close it to close,  Some people give each other High fives others don't want to be touched at all 
I tend to keep 2 feet or more between myself and others and have had the odd occasion of being almost chased when i back up in a conversation when speaking to friends from Germany I'm sure it's funny to watch. But what about arm touches, pats on the back? it doesn't need to be things you do but things you observe. I say Please, Thank You, Sir, Mam and shake hands. It took me a long time to hug people that didn't think twice about it and looked offended when i offered a hand instead of open arms. What are the questions or opinions from workers on both sides of how to handle sitautions etc.

In Europe "How do you do" is an actual investment of concern 
In the US it"s HI!

If you list anything please post where you believe it belongs so others can agree contest off perspective 

All of the categories below can cross a line into harassment but it may help to give examples others may be doing or have questions about 

What is office slang that can be offensive and needs to end ?
What is common sense and manners 
What are some of the things people may be doing or saying that may be offending 
What is Sexual Harassment?

What are thing that can be done to keep an office casual enough to have a place for humor and slang but strict enough to prevent lines from getting crossed or making co workers feel isolated offended or threatened.  


Rather than making this a derogatory thread on the topic it would be nice to get constructive feedback and examples that work to explain opinions 
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by Alice: Let me put it in clear text for you:
It is simple, whenever sexual abuse against women comes up, there is always someone who cries "foul" and "nazi feminist" and "this happens to men too" as if one bad thing justifies the existence of the other. Yes, abuse against men happens, it is a problem.  And if this have been up on the forums, talk it out with the moderators and don't take it out on the issue of women being harassed.
Yes, circumcision (as mentioned) is a much needed debate to have with parents, and when it comes to that, I'm the first one to through my 2 cents in and say that I think it is abuse. But there can be more than one conversation going on at the same time, just stay on topic and debate other topics when they are brought up on their own.

I see this as exactly on topic. And telling someone "are you a troll?" "that is naive" "this has been discussed and it was off topic" or suggest that I deviate from the rest of the people on the subject of what is harassment and what is flirting is not encouraging a conversation. It is very much perceived as you trying to just shut me down.

Problem is (which you don't seem to understand);

It should be seen as the same problem.
Nor women specific nor men specific. Asking to discus only the problem for women here and demanding to take the guys their problems in a separate topic is quite naive yes because that's only going to add oil to the fire and is a big part of the problem.

And the fact its posted as a statement on an image REALLY doesn't make it look any better either

I'm sorry but saying you know men get abused as-well and have toxic stereotypes that they have to live up to and then saying it should be talked about separately...
Who asking who to shut up in here? Hence the pot calling the kettle black and only confirms the naive part.

I wasn't just referring to stereotypes or circumcision only. I'm referring to actual sexual harassment and abuse at work (and yes rape too).
I can imagine male victims have a really hard time being taken serious... telling them to go talk about it somewhere else (you didn't even start the topic, but even if you did...) is again... very naive.

Last edited by ACiD80 : 3 Weeks Ago at 09:00 PM.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Harrassment is subjective. Harmless flirting or 'wooing' and expressing attraction is a perfectly natural and human interaction. Like I said,  the out right power abusing jerks need calling out. But the poisonous feminists with an axe to grind like to conflate the two in an attempt to distort to thier man-hating agenda. It gets political. Its then not about men and women being safe at work, it is about keeping men in 'their place'. 

Hillary Clinton played this to perfection when she thought the female vote was hers, the division she stoked up was vile. We then had some bizzare womans march that seemed to combine Harvey Weinstein, Islam and Bill Clinton. The lack of self awareness was staggering. But it didnt matter to them. Ordinary decent guys were the target. Not the Clintons and Weinsteins. I suspect we wont see another womans march when the worst of 'righteous and virtuous' Hollywood is exposed either. 

Hypocrites. The lot of them. Again, if you have children, especially boys, kick back against the insidious aspects of progressive feminist thinking. Keep things in perspective. Do not allow subjective notions of harassment to shape how they are raised.
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  3 Weeks Ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0vwo_TvFPQ

This reminded me of this video.  At what point is it romantic and what point is it harassment?  It is getting harder and harder to balance.   
Roberto mentioned someone had a story about a supervisor asking a girl out on a date.   He asked a girl on a date?  How did he ask?  I mean I think if she liked the guy she would have been happy to get asked but if she didn't it turns into creepy.  

Where is the line?  what is acceptable?  What is not acceptable?  You have people saying that saying hi to a woman can be seen as harassment.   But to be honest it does remind me of that video I posted above.    

I mean we know the obvious not acceptable but then people are starting to push it further back to where normal stuff is considered harassment.  
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  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by ACiD80: Problem is (which you don't seem to understand);

It should be seen as the same problem.
Nor women specific nor men specific. Asking to discus only the problem for women here and demanding to take the guys their problems in a separate topic is quite naive yes because that's only going to add oil to the fire and is a big part of the problem.

And the fact its posted as a statement on an image REALLY doesn't make it look any better either

I'm sorry but saying you know men get abused as-well and have toxic stereotypes that they have to live up to and then saying it should be talked about separately...
Who asking who to shut up in here? Hence the pot calling the kettle black and only confirms the naive part.

I wasn't just referring to stereotypes or circumcision only. I'm referring to actual sexual harassment and abuse at work (and yes rape too).
I can imagine male victims have a really hard time being taken serious... telling them to go talk about it somewhere else (you didn't even start the topic, but even if you did...) is again... very naive.

Please dial back on the passive aggressive (remarks like (which you don't seem to understand); you are naive etc.) we have different opinions here, nothing more to it than that.
I, and a LOT of women with me, are tired of the question of harassment against women being hijacked. The most recent spectacular hijacking of the subject in Europe was when women started talking about harassment at festivals, then came new years in Köln and all of the sudden harassment was a "culture problem" with "refugee men who didn't understand the western world.

This thread is about women being harassed in the industry, no matter who started the thread, that is the topic. If you really want to help guys being harassed, do so by lifting it as a topic on its own.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by ilovekaiju: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0vwo_TvFPQ

This reminded me of this video.  At what point is it romantic and what point is it harassment?  It is getting harder and harder to balance.   
Roberto mentioned someone had a story about a supervisor asking a girl out on a date.   He asked a girl on a date?  How did he ask?  I mean I think if she liked the guy she would have been happy to get asked but if she didn't it turns into creepy.  

Where is the line?  what is acceptable?  What is not acceptable?  You have people saying that saying hi to a woman can be seen as harassment.   But to be honest it does remind me of that video I posted above.    

I mean we know the obvious not acceptable but then people are starting to push it further back to where normal stuff is considered harassment.  

Since we are talking workplace here. Look at it from the workplace point of view. What do you consider a behavior that is neutral and makes everyone feel respected for their competence?

I worked at this one place where the account managers where (almost) all crazy sexy women who had a habit of pushing through their clients work by flirting with the (almost all) male creatives. As a female creative, I ended up getting the boring below-the-line work from the least attractive account managers. Flirting was kind of the the grease that made the agency run but at the coast of the quality being lower since competence didn't dictate who did what. It also was a crazy sexist workplace where young male creatives had their egos rubbed. The female creatives on the other hand didn't thrive and where treated like unfuckables by their colleagues and weren't respected for their competence but disrespected for their unwillingness to flirt. All in all, a toxic environment where young guys believed this was the norm.

At this workplace it took a couple of things;
The guy who was responsible for the account management team who deployed this strategy was replaced.
All work started going through team leaders for creatives. (You didn't get paid for hours not logged through proper channels.)
The agency promoted senior females to team leaders, the ones who weren't interested in flirting with their team, and who definitely weren't flirting with the account managers.
Result: Production quality and output soared.

Had the male creatives or account managers seen this for what it is, a toxic environment and not flirting, it wouldn't have had to be such a bad place to work at for such a long time. Had the female account managers a part in this, yes they did. But the ones who really suffered where the female creatives. And the thing that suffered where the production. But it was a complex situation and power structure, as most larger production sites are. Had people deployed a no flirting during office hours for themselves, it would have been avoided.

There are SO MANY instances when the best thing to do is just, respect people for their competence and don't flirt.
 
  3 Weeks Ago
I haven't posted in here in over a year and a half but the replies to this thread are absolutely abysmal. The discussion is the genuine real problem of women being sexually harassed in the workplace and the first replies are from men demanding that the focus be on them. If your first response to women trying to stop abuse is to say "what about circumcision?" congratulations, you haven't done anything to help anyone. 

A single woman has dared reply to offer her perspective in this thread and what's happened? She's been attacked. I know that those doing the attacking won't see it that way so I'm not going to convince them otherwise but I would strongly ask them to try take a moment and put themselves in other people's shoes rather than immediately throwing theirs.

It's 2017 and we STILL can't talk about things like this without people deciding it's some sort of fight. The "well, actually..." knee-jerk response, rather than considering that what's being discussed might be beyond your world experience. If anything, it feels like things are getting much more toxic.

If you have any prejudices toward another human being, based on the way they were born - be it gender, race, nationality or sexuality, then it's time to step back and focus on where that hatred stems from. Are you part of the problem? Do you honestly believe that history will prove you right?
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  3 Weeks Ago
Originally Posted by AJ: I haven't posted in here in over a year and a half but the replies to this thread are absolutely abysmal. The discussion is the genuine real problem of women being sexually harassed in the workplace and the first replies are from men demanding that the focus be on them. If your first response to women trying to stop abuse is to say "what about circumcision?" congratulations, you haven't done anything to help anyone. 

A single woman has dared reply to offer her perspective in this thread and what's happened? She's been attacked. I know that those doing the attacking won't see it that way so I'm not going to convince them otherwise but I would strongly ask them to try take a moment and put themselves in other people's shoes rather than immediately throwing theirs.

It's 2017 and we STILL can't talk about things like this without people deciding it's some sort of fight. The "well, actually..." knee-jerk response, rather than considering that what's being discussed might be beyond your world experience. If anything, it feels like things are getting much more toxic.

If you have any prejudices toward another human being, based on the way they were born - be it gender, race, nationality or sexuality, then it's time to step back and focus on where that hatred stems from. Are you part of the problem? Do you honestly believe that history will prove you right?

Actually we can still talk about and we are. Not everyone is buying the narrative. Life is complex and these discussions bear that out. Those that challenge and debate without throwing around 'omg hater' labels will most certainly be proved right. May I suggest you look into what happened in the UK a few years back? 18,500 children raped and abused over a 20 year period. The police were indoctrinated to look away because it was considered ' politically problematic' to stop child rape. To this day, when this subject is raised, we still hear the usual crowd screeching 'hater!! bigot!! literally Hitler!!'. There are many dynamics at play here. Hence discussion and debate.
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