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Old 11-02-2013, 11:41 PM   #61
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Honestly, I abhor the idea that certain games supposedly appeal to certain genders, because it really just perpetuates harmful and outdated gender stereotypes that hurt not just women, but everybody.

I'm female, and I love Battlefield, Call of Duty, GTA and loads of other supposedly "male" games. And so do LOADS of other women. It's ridiculous to think that FPS games are for guys and Sims type games are for women - it's 1950s bullshit that we really should have left behind in, well, the 1950s.

I'm so glad my parents raised me to ignore stupid, pointless gender "norms". I hope that in my own lifetime, I'll see society as a whole shedding them too.
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Old 11-02-2013, 11:42 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conbom
The best games in my opinion, are the ones based on art, story, history, culture, mechanics, a mix of these things. Not gender


This, this, THIS.
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:04 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Honestly, I abhor the idea that certain games supposedly appeal to certain genders, because it really just perpetuates harmful and outdated gender stereotypes that hurt not just women, but everybody.


There is a statistic difference in appeal but it's more down to the technology than the titles, console vs casual gaming.
I do agree with you on the point that it's harmful to make games different just cause it's women. (I.e lets make it pink! Lets make it about making food!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
I'm female, and I love Battlefield, Call of Duty, GTA and loads of other supposedly "male" games. And so do LOADS of other women. It's ridiculous to think that FPS games are for guys and Sims type games are for women - it's 1950s bullshit that we really should have left behind in, well, the 1950s.

I'm so glad my parents raised me to ignore stupid, pointless gender "norms". I hope that in my own lifetime, I'll see society as a whole shedding them too.


What is your personal opinion (if any) on why women on a general note gravitate towards casual gaming?
 
Old 11-03-2013, 02:29 AM   #64
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I don't think women found casual games so much as casual games found them by appearing in areas with a strong female user base, cell phones and social networks. Suddenly games were demystified from being this nerdy technical thing that required special hardware to being a fun little break from reality that you can explore when you're bored. Casual/indie devs know this and so they're much more willing to embrace their female audience.

AAA studios have more to lose though, and thus are the slowest to adopt new ideas. The male AAA audience is huge, reliable, and easy to sell to. That's why many AAA studios haven't been as progressive as they could have, though this is changing every year.
 
Old 11-03-2013, 02:55 AM   #65
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For sure it is an interesting topic. Maybe because I live in Holland and women hold all sorts of professional positions that are often influential, that I have a hard time feeling anything for the gender issue. I remember watching that ladies first videos on youtube (the one mentioned on the first page) but found they held very little marketing information I could use. I have to design 2 games atm and the first one only very hardcore women gamers would be interested in, the second one though might benefit a lot from elements that would appeal more to women as well as men so I will follow this thread with interest, just in case something falls out of it .
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Old 11-03-2013, 08:19 AM   #66
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Women dislike violence, that's the main argument I heard. Women like puzzles, explore enviromnents. Women enjoy female characters like Lara Croft. Cute, children stuff, women like children. Anything about fashion, how to look good. Relationships.
Maybe something can be taken from movie industry. I for example can't stand female movies and series, it's just unbearably boring to me. Of course, it's just gender differences. It's the same many women won't watch 300 spartans. Ask yourself how those movie markets differ and why.
I think games shouldn't be really games, but some environments to explore without any harm. Feel safe, enjoy the place.
I think it's simple:women should make games for women. And I would really encourage womenctocexpress their opinion on this.

Please don't hurry bashing me I'm a stereotypical male. Instead, correct with your vision. But morality in games won't sell. What sells is what appeals to our strong instincts. And those instincts are fundamentally different on sexes. I won't play dolls, you won't play cars. I know Leigh might disagree, but I'd say it's quite common we differ that way.

It's interesting, how many hardcore female players out there. It seems women play only when bored at work or in transport, that's why the casual female market out there I think.
 
Old 11-03-2013, 09:16 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mister3d
Women dislike violence, that's the main argument I heard. Women like puzzles, explore enviromnents. Women enjoy female characters like Lara Croft. Cute, children stuff, women like children. Anything about fashion, how to look good. Relationships.
Maybe something can be taken from movie industry. I for example can't stand female movies and series, it's just unbearably boring to me. Of course, it's just gender differences. It's the same many women won't watch 300 spartans. Ask yourself how those movie markets differ and why.
I think games shouldn't be really games, but some environments to explore without any harm. Feel safe, enjoy the place.
I think it's simple:women should make games for women. And I would really encourage womenctocexpress their opinion on this.

Please don't hurry bashing me I'm a stereotypical male. Instead, correct with your vision. But morality in games won't sell. What sells is what appeals to our strong instincts. And those instincts are fundamentally different on sexes. I won't play dolls, you won't play cars. I know Leigh might disagree, but I'd say it's quite common we differ that way.

It's interesting, how many hardcore female players out there. It seems women play only when bored at work or in transport, that's why the casual female market out there I think.


Don't worry, I'm not out to bash you
I appreciate the honesty, though I don't agree with you. I see a strong current of people moving away from the traditional "Girls/dolls" & "Boys/cars" thinking. And even though the generation of players thats in majority now are grown up with that thinking I have a hard time understanding the "Women/pink" and "Men/smacking up a whore in GTA" thinking. Violence aimed specifically towards women sets me off to the extent where it has robbed me of many full game experiences. I simply haven't been able to enjoy the rest of the game.
(Yes, It's cause I've seen violence in relationships up close. But so has a LOT of women.)
But violence on a general note is not something women shy away from. One wouldn't say that game of thrones is a peaceful happy fuzzy family series about baking and dolls. Or that a woman has never picked up a murder mystery with gory details.

I strongly disagree with the women should make games for women though, cause that implies that men should make games for men and that practically every single game made so far have nothing in appeal to women. And that just isn't true.
 
Old 11-03-2013, 09:29 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imashination
...

Ill refrain from diverting off the main topic since it's back on track. Is it ok if I PM you instead?
Cheers!
 
Old 11-03-2013, 09:57 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice
What is your personal opinion (if any) on why women on a general note gravitate towards casual gaming?


Because they're raised in a society that expects them to.
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:01 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mister3d
Women dislike violence, that's the main argument I heard. Women like puzzles, explore enviromnents. Women enjoy female characters like Lara Croft. Cute, children stuff, women like children. Anything about fashion, how to look good. Relationships.
Maybe something can be taken from movie industry. I for example can't stand female movies and series, it's just unbearably boring to me. Of course, it's just gender differences. It's the same many women won't watch 300 spartans. Ask yourself how those movie markets differ and why.
I think games shouldn't be really games, but some environments to explore without any harm. Feel safe, enjoy the place.
I think it's simple:women should make games for women. And I would really encourage womenctocexpress their opinion on this.

Please don't hurry bashing me I'm a stereotypical male. Instead, correct with your vision. But morality in games won't sell. What sells is what appeals to our strong instincts. And those instincts are fundamentally different on sexes. I won't play dolls, you won't play cars. I know Leigh might disagree, but I'd say it's quite common we differ that way.


Damn right I disagree with your views. The differences you're pointing out are not biologicial, they're cultural. If boys were encouraged to play with dolls, they would. Instead, they're told that "dolls are girls' toys" and that they should play with guns and cars instead, so it's hardly surprising when, later down the line, those older boys want to play COD and racing games. This is what you were told, and that's why you believe what you do.

Your views on women seem entirely based on stereotypes. Do you even know any women for real?
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:48 AM   #71
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I agree with the point that current appeals to various sexes is purely cultural. Heck, Germany (and Australia) even now recognize that there are more sexes than just male and female which really should blur the lines and stereotypes further over time. Everyone has both estrogen and testosterone in them.. so you can't classify anyone as purely male or female.

And publishers will just publish was sells well, which usually appeals to current cultural/marketing trends. I bet if video games existed in the Victorian era, they would be about dueling (men) and finding a wealthy husband (women).

It seems the question is more about how to break cultural stereotypes than about what to change in video games, which is fair enough. But it does go beyond this forum's scope.
 
Old 11-03-2013, 10:53 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Damn right I disagree with your views. The differences you're pointing out are not biologicial, they're cultural. If boys were encouraged to play with dolls, they would. Instead, they're told that "dolls are girls' toys" and that they should play with guns and cars instead, so it's hardly surprising when, later down the line, those older boys want to play COD and racing games. This is what you were told, and that's why you believe what you do.

Your views on women seem entirely based on stereotypes. Do you even know any women for real?


Usually I stay away from thread like these for too many reasons, but I think I have to chip in here.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/..._n_1827727.html

The Gender Equality Paradox - Documentary NRK - 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70

However, I'm not in the mood to say you are right or you are wrong. The thing is that such research usually covered with controversy and the only way to be safe is to stick to politically correct "result".

It really hard when a nobel winner can be threatened with "taking the nobel back" or asking a top university president to step down when they said something politically incorrect instead of looking at hard data on why they came to that conclusion.
 
Old 11-03-2013, 11:15 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fablefox
Usually I stay away from thread like these for too many reasons, but I think I have to chip in here.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/..._n_1827727.html

The Gender Equality Paradox - Documentary NRK - 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70

However, I'm not in the mood to say you are right or you are wrong. The thing is that such research usually covered with controversy and the only way to be safe is to stick to politically correct "result".

It really hard when a nobel winner can be threatened with "taking the nobel back" or asking a top university president to step down when they said something politically incorrect instead of looking at hard data on why they came to that conclusion.


Yes, let's find random Huffpost articles and YouTube videos instead of actually, you know, looking at how things are in countries with good levels of gender equality, and seeing how things are there.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:20 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fablefox
However, I'm not in the mood to say you are right or you are wrong.


There are many terrible posts in this thread, but yours might win them all. You just said that a cultural upbringing can't happen because of "bio truths!!". You are terrible and should continue to stay away from these threads.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:33 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fablefox
Usually I stay away from thread like these for too many reasons, but I think I have to chip in here.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/..._n_1827727.html


This is a paradow indeed, but maybe on a different level than you think: Highly evolved intelligent and clever thinking scientists use their minds to try prove that we are merely animals run by hormones.
In the long run, this kind of research is used to cement gender stereotypes that goes well beyond an initial animal instinct. We kinda have more evolved brain than monkeys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fablefox
The Gender Equality Paradox - Documentary NRK - 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70

However, I'm not in the mood to say you are right or you are wrong. The thing is that such research usually covered with controversy and the only way to be safe is to stick to politically correct "result".

It really hard when a nobel winner can be threatened with "taking the nobel back" or asking a top university president to step down when they said something politically incorrect instead of looking at hard data on why they came to that conclusion.


http://forumblog.org/2013/10/top-10...s-in-the-world/
Iceland has been number one for a number of years (birthplace of eve online, wohoo!) I suggest you visit sometimes.
Yes, women and men are different on a general note. (Edit, general as in physical and sometimes hormonial) Why use that difference in order to justify treating people differently? There is a richness in a colorful demographic gone lost in that argument.

I think that games like WOW in a really good way embrace differences. You can have a nearly FPS experience when doing PVP battle or a lore/storytelling experience when exploring and questing. I only wish that there would be more casual gaming like games in it that could be accessed through my mobile device, along with guild chat, the armory, the auction house etc.

Conclusion, yes we are different but don't let the monkey forefathers dictate the society we choose to build.

(I personally think hat this kind of reasoning is patriarchy bullshit used to keep women down in the same manner the religion is trying to use creationism to keep people in line. But that is a whole other debate and I'd love to take it with you in a PM instead of here, to keep the thread open. PM me if you want to discuss it.)
 
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