Tropes vs Women vs State of the business

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Old 11 November 2013   #16
Originally Posted by Tama: I have in the past. What I am employed with now is really none of your business.
I suggest you stick to your socio political topic unless you really need to bridge away from it now that your hero has been exposed as a manufacturer of feigned outrage.


Tell me, are you always this rude or is it towards women in particular?
 
Old 11 November 2013   #17
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Last edited by PaulEMcLaughlin : 11 November 2013 at 06:36 PM.
 
Old 11 November 2013   #18
Originally Posted by PaulEMcLaughlin: My aunt was a United States Marine Corps officer for 4 years in the early 1980s. I don't really listen to people who talk about "girl stuff" and "guy stuff".


There is a statistically proved "girl stuff" and "guy stuff" in games today. Statistically, the majority of players when it comes to casual games (apps such as bejeweled or scrabble or candy crush) are women. And when it comes to platform games, a majority of players are men.(Average player is 30.8 years I think.)
I am not putting any value into this, just stating how it is.
Related to this, I want to know if you work in the video game industry and if the potential in the plat form market is discussed
 
Old 11 November 2013   #19
I know a number of women who play Call of Duty and Battlefield and they love it( I don't play)
Are there women characters in these games? If not perhaps it might be fun to include them.
 
Old 11 November 2013   #20
Originally Posted by Alice: Related to this, I want to know if you work in the video game industry and if the potential in the plat form market is discussed



No I don't work in the game industry. I am unemployed and have never worked in the gaming or film industry. I've never really even been employed full time.
 
Old 11 November 2013   #21
Originally Posted by Alice: There is a statistically proved "girl stuff" and "guy stuff" in games today. Statistically, the majority of players when it comes to casual games (apps such as bejeweled or scrabble or candy crush) are women. And when it comes to platform games, a majority of players are men.(Average player is 30.8 years I think.)
I am not putting any value into this, just stating how it is.
Related to this, I want to know if you work in the video game industry and if the potential in the plat form market is discussed


See, you could have started a thread like this, instead you had to bring up Anita Sarkeesian and her moronic plight.
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Old 11 November 2013   #22
Originally Posted by PaulEMcLaughlin: No I don't work in the game industry. I am unemployed and have never worked in the gaming or film industry. I've never really even been employed full time.

Could've fooled me. I thought you were a professional forum troll

Seems like too many posts have gone off topic here and it seems people aren't able to contribute anything useful. It is a shame because I am genuinely interested if there are some good studies specifically into what aspects in games would attract more women to play them (aside from proper marketing). There is a lot of misogyny in modern games and perhaps that is a turn off for some.

This is a sensitive topic though so too bad.. in before the lock.
 
Old 11 November 2013   #23
Originally Posted by fleabay: See, you could have started a thread like this, instead you had to bring up Anita Sarkeesian and her moronic plight.


Well, then my question is the same to you; do you work in the video game industry?
 
Old 11 November 2013   #24
Originally Posted by BrainFreeze: Could've fooled me. I thought you were a professional forum troll

Seems like too many posts have gone off topic here and it seems people aren't able to contribute anything useful. It is a shame because I am genuinely interested if there are some good studies specifically into what aspects in games would attract more women to play them (aside from proper marketing). There is a lot of misogyny in modern games and perhaps that is a turn off for some.

This is a sensitive topic though so too bad.. in before the lock.


We could always try to put that behind us and talk about the topic, I agree with you that is is truly interesting. Since I've also developed games in the past, to me this is a brave new world.

My point with starting with tropes vs women is this; If you feel personally insulted by these video lectures AND you work in the industry, how do yo reason around it? Are you a part on an ongoing discussion about new titles? Are you making decisions on the content at all?

And then if you dont work in the industry but just HAAAAD to tell us what a slut/idiot/etc Anita Sarkeesian is. Well then you're just a troll.
 
Old 11 November 2013   #25
Originally Posted by Alice: And then if you dont work in the industry but just HAAAAD to tell us what a slut -snip- Anita Sarkeesian is. Well then you're just a troll.


What? I missed that part. Just make it up as you go, why not.
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Old 11 November 2013   #26
I will say this in conclusion. One time about 6 or 7 years ago when I was in college at SCAD I had a woman come up to me when I was getting some work done on my car and ask me what my major was if I was in college etc. or something I don't remember what precipitated the conversation, but I don't think I initiated it. I told her I was an animation major and specifically 3d animation and then she went on this whole tirade about depictions of women in the gaming industry or something. I really didn't know what to say and none of her anger was directed towards me or anything but it was kind of one of the weirdest experiences of my life. This "anita sarkeesian" person reminds me a lot of her, they aren't the same person but the whole thing is weird. It's like, the game I play most is Civ 5 where a lot of the leaders are women and my favorite non strategy game of all time is Tribes that had both female and male player models and technically the female models were better because they were smaller and harder to see. So I really don't even know what to make of all this. And that is all I really have to say.
 
Old 11 November 2013   #27
Originally Posted by Alice: (And for ANYONE who goes on to bashing Anita, just stop it. It is offtopic and more importantly it shows very clearly an unprofessional attitude. If you wonder what all this stems from, here is a talk about it; http://tedxwomen.org/speakers/anita-sarkeesian-2/ )


Youve mentioned her three times and provided two links to her videos but then demand we don't say a bad word about her? im not sure I see why you have the authority to demand what we can and cant say, which is also ironic as thats one of the ploys Anita pulls herself.

For anyone else wondering who the hell she is, essentially this young lady who doesnt play games herself, uses them to point out how women are repressed, underrepresented, held back, mocked and so forth. She went on to raise $160,000 from kickstarter quite a while back in order for her to research how else games negatively affect womens lives.

Now on the face of it, thats fair enough, if that is indeed the case and theres something important to be said then Im eager to hear it. The problem is, almost everything she says is more skewed than your typical Fox news report. For example in her latest video, she goes on to mention how a new platformer released allows you to choose who youd like to rescue as the aim of the game, a lady or a dog; this is then used to show how sexist the game makers are and she continues to show how the damsel is only comparable to a dog. Though of course this being Anita she utterly neglects to mention that you can choose a male to save; you can save a boy, a girl or a dog, its about as fair and even as a platformer could possibly be.

Im open to listen to ideas about how to improve things, make them more equal for everyone, but youve used examples from a shallow husk of a lady who weaseled her way onto a TED stage for 10 minutes and seems far more interested in getting a name for herself than actually saying anything of any merit. All comments on her videos are disabled so theres no dialogue with her. All criticism is brushed off as men being sexist towards her and all the women who have also stood up against her are just brushed off as being under a guys thumb. Essentially she and her followers have set her up as being beyond criticism, which is exactly what you have attempted to do here

And finally, just how does one person spend $160,000 to make three short youtube videos?
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Old 11 November 2013   #28
Personally, I think that the biggest issue ordinary PC/console games have in comparison to casual games are accessibility. It is easy to discover casual games when you can even do it from the privacy of a locked bathroom. (I just became a mom, bathroom locks are gods gift to any parent trying to stay sane ^^)
Many of the casual games starts of at a webpage, working a bit like a test floor for games. The games that make it at the webpage gets a social media connection (wow I can play this on facebook! :P ) and the ones that makes it on facebook becomes apps for mobiles.
I think that casual games would be a perfect way of introducing the basics of a complex game mechanic. (MMORGs for instance)
Once you know the basics, and have an account, the step of actually downloading a game onto your console or laptop is not that big leap.

Then, when it comes to both content and the interaction in games... There is a long journey ahead of us.

I would love it if more games where actually centered around storytelling, rather than orders about juggling factors from a marketing department. (For instance, would the latest game you played pass the Bechdel test? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test )
 
Old 11 November 2013   #29
Alright, since you actually make a statement around Sarkeesian that is not JUST attacks on her person I'll answer you, from the heart as a woman who has worked in a male dominated industry for ten years now.

Originally Posted by imashination: Youve mentioned her three times and provided two links to her videos but then demand we don't say a bad word about her? im not sure I see why you have the authority to demand what we can and cant say, which is also ironic as thats one of the ploys Anita pulls herself.


I used her videos as a background. A LOT of men have been personally hurt by her opinions. So hurt that they have a lot of mean things to say about her or her character. this behavior is just appalling.
IF you work in the industry and IF you start swearing and cursing and quite frankly acting like a child when you hear the name Anita Sarkeesian, how come? And more importantly, are you discussing how you should reach out to the potential market that is women?


Originally Posted by imashination: For anyone else wondering who the hell she is, essentially this young lady who doesnt play games herself, uses them to point out how women are repressed, underrepresented, held back, mocked and so forth. She went on to raise $160,000 from kickstarter quite a while back in order for her to research how else games negatively affect womens lives.


Or, Anita Sarkeesian is a media critic and blogger with a BA in communication studies and an MA in Social and Political Thought from York University. Anita made a kickstarter project, asking for 6000 dollars to make a series of lectures on

"This video project will explore, analyze and deconstruct some of the most common tropes and stereotypes of female characters in games."


After receiving death threats, a hate storm and even a game where one could beat her to a bloody pulp simply for implying that some games where a tad sexist, there was a public outcry of support for her. In the end, people donated 156 000 dollars and laid the foundation for an ongoing series of lectures and the ability for Anita to work with raising awareness of gender and inequality in pop culture full time.

Originally Posted by imashination: Now on the face of it, thats fair enough, if that is indeed the case and theres something important to be said then Im eager to hear it. The problem is, almost everything she says is more skewed than your typical Fox news report. For example in her latest video, she goes on to mention how a new platformer released allows you to choose who youd like to rescue as the aim of the game, a lady or a dog; this is then used to show how sexist the game makers are and she continues to show how the damsel is only comparable to a dog. Though of course this being Anita she utterly neglects to mention that you can choose a male to save; you can save a boy, a girl or a dog, its about as fair and even as a platformer could possibly be.


That whole video questions the trope story plot. She questions why its always a woman who has to be saved and why the default damsel in distress is a woman.
Now to be honest, when you focus on one tiny detail in one video you do tend to miss the big picture; Women aren't buying it. The games that is. Women goes nuts for casual games and spam their friends with everything from scrabble to candy crush. But they aren't buying the console and PC games to the same extent. Anita is doing you as a game developer a favor, she is exploring why. She isn't trying to destroy your little boys club you have going. She is doing you a favor.

Originally Posted by imashination: Im open to listen to ideas about how to improve things, make them more equal for everyone, but youve used examples from a shallow husk of a lady who weaseled her way onto a TED stage for 10 minutes and seems far more interested in getting a name for herself than actually saying anything of any merit.


just... wow
Maybe your failure to see anything of merit in what she says is that you deemed her as a "shallow, weasly, husk of a lady"?


Originally Posted by imashination: All comments on her videos are disabled so theres no dialogue with her.


Maybe cause the majority of comments comes from immature boys who cant talk about a media critic without using derogatory slanders and pointing out that she is a female?

Originally Posted by imashination: All criticism is brushed off as men being sexist towards her and all the women who have also stood up against her are just brushed off as being under a guys thumb. Essentially she and her followers have set her up as being beyond criticism, which is exactly what you have attempted to do here.


Yes, guilty. I used Anita as to weed out the trolls. A person who cant have a discussion about gender in gaming without attacking a forefront critic on a personal level is proabably not a part of the work to take console games to the female demographic.

Originally Posted by imashination: And finally, just how does one person spend $160,000 to make three short youtube videos?

You mentioned she had "weaseled herself onto a TED stage. I guess you haven't watched it as she explains that in the TED talk.
 
Old 11 November 2013   #30
Originally Posted by Alice: It is easy to discover casual games when you can even do it from the privacy of a locked bathroom.
I call it playtime too

..Couldn't resist bringing a bit of light heartedness into the thread
 
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