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Old 09-06-2013, 06:55 AM   #16
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You're making great progress! Reminds me of my own film a year and a half ago, when all we had were some shots drawn on paper all layered on our kitchen table. I always found it was one of the most fun aspect of designing a film, when everything is still possible

Hey thanks! Its so much fun isn't it. I just hope I don't keep changing things until last minute otherwise we'll have problems in finishing stuff! The projects here are also inspiring us to keep moving. Thanks to this thread
 
Old 09-06-2013, 07:40 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banman7
CATEGORY: Cinematic Comic Book/Movie

PROJECT DESCRIPTION:
I am creating an animated Cinematic Comic. I have had this idea since I was a child. An animated comic, looks and feels like a comic, but moves with full animation panel to panel.

[/IMG]


Sounds ambitious! Hope you can get it up and running.
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Old 09-06-2013, 08:04 AM   #18
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@banman7 - That trailer was wicked! Wondering, how interactive are you planning to make the comic? Will you have to "press" on various elements to trigger the animation, like if they go for a switch, you swipe at it to get them to do the action. Or is it more passive?
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Old 09-06-2013, 02:23 PM   #19
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@banman7 - That trailer was wicked! Wondering, how interactive are you planning to make the comic? Will you have to "press" on various elements to trigger the animation, like if they go for a switch, you swipe at it to get them to do the action. Or is it more passive?


The comic part will be simple at first. It will play one frame and seemlessly move to the next frame after frame is played and it also has the option to press play or stop each frame as it goes along there will be more varied options for interactivity. I just want to keep it simple at first but as I get into the flow I want it to be more and more interactive with extras and such.

Quote:
Sounds ambitious! Hope you can get it up and running.


I do to. Its so crazy that I start out with a simple idea and then it always gets so big. I Love Kaiju was the easiest of my ideas to implement. Less stylized, more realistic.

I'm utilizing methods to get it done quickly that I've picked up from different artists.
Mixing things like Jeff Lew doing everything in frame and leaving out a lot of compositing.
Using Terrence Walker's kit bashing method for a lot of generic things. Using some of M Dots quick methods. Using mocap. Using things like Vue for the environment. Using HDRI environments for more realism. Using facial capture. Using simulation and a few other methods. Treating it more like a stop motion and live action film than all CG.

In essence I'm making a full length feature film cutting frames out and putting them on the page in a comic form. The actual frames will be used later as an actual movie. So not wasting anything and rebranding it several times.

Take the frames with no animation and I have a print and webcomic. Take the webcomic and insert actual animation and now I have an app. Take all the frames and edit it straight through and now I have a movie.

I've taken 1 product and turned it into 3.

Also trying to get with some affiliates to sell cool one of a kind type items and tshirts and do in app advertising but in a fun way. Remember these?


Just like that and we take a percentage of sales until we get our own product off the ground and get a fan base strong enough to sell.

Next up we take the comic and start fishing for pre-sale distributors in different country territories and sell the film.
 
Old 09-06-2013, 03:13 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banman7
T
I've taken 1 product and turned it into 3.


Judge not, least ye be judged but...

While I believe its good to be entrepreneurial in life, I think you should focus mainly on producing 1 beautiful piece of work that people really enjoy and get some value out of, instead of thinking about 3 products, international rights and selling ad space. You should produce something for the love of producing it and not even think about money.

If you work hard and earnestly at something you create, people will appreciate in time, and it if it is good, they'll buy it. Even if you make no money from it, it shouldn't matter, because its the process that you should get the intrinsic reward from.

Making money is nice, don't get me wrong, but I didn't start Oni World last year to make any money. I did it because I wanted to just draw what I wanted to draw and not be concerned with selling prints, or trying to score clients, or what ever.

Unhindered by those thoughts, I just created for the love of creating and I feel like I created some of my best work. Now I'm making one of the stories into a game, a sellable product, and while I am aware that at the end of the process I need to market it and sell it etc., I'm more concerned with making that game the best damned game I can.

I know that this next year, I am going to probably come close to killing myself working on it. I'm going to design so many assets, characters and sets, I'm going to paint so much for it, to make it look as good as I can make it. Sam is going to kill himself writing this game's code and then making sure it is bug free.

We're not doing it for the money, we're doing it because we both love computer games and want to make something people fall in love with. People respond to that and I think its why we're seeing a boom in the indie gaming market.
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:00 PM   #21
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@shrunkendesigner - I disagree. My intent with creating an IP is absolutely to make money, to do otherwise would be asinine. Why? Because I need money to live. If I want to make a living off of my own works, that means commercializing it and one very good technique is to explore multiple mediums and make multiple products off the same IP in order to minimize your risk and pull in revenue from multiple streams.

The romantic ideal of working purely for the artistic pursuit is just silly. If you have the time/money available to just do what you want for the sake of doing it, by all means, I encourage you to do so. And don't get me wrong, I agree that focusing on a single piece of work can yield a much greater end product. And yes, passion in your work absolutely sells.

However, focusing on making money AND putting your heart & soul into a project are not mutually exclusive. Anyone who plans to do this for a living should ideally be considering both.
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Last edited by grantmoore3d : 09-06-2013 at 06:17 PM.
 
Old 09-06-2013, 06:03 PM   #22
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@shrunkendesigner

I'm not really making 3 products. I'm making 1 in theory but delivering it in 3 different flavors. I'm simply making a movie. Taking still frames and making a standard comic as I go. Then as things progress taking those still frames and putting the animated frames in the same spot. Motionartist and flash make this real easy.

Too many people have great artistry but no sense of business. I want to use what I create to make a living. To be able to create more. If I don't make a living creating I have to stick to jobs I hate. I love to create and if I attack it like a business it may open more doors.

I'm sorry but too many artists create something only to find 20 people view it or instead of monetizing it they end up losing opportunity they could have cashed in on and now they are working for someone else. Even worse they are working a non creative job and now have no time to create and give up on art all together.

I'm running a low budget but planning it like a business for profit so I can tell my stories and ditch the day job.

I'm just going back to my roots. When I was a child I'd create little picture books and tell all types of stories. They were so good the teacher used them for storytime. Kids liked them so I started to sell them to classmates. I loved it. My plan is to do it again.

To each there own but I'm going all out creatively but I find being creative in my business ideas is just as fun and exciting to me.

Personally I think artsy Fartsy shorts are a waste of time. But then I have to adjust my thinking on the matter because each creative person has their own outlet and in the end not a waste of time. If they love doing it.

I just happen to love giant monsters and superheroes and wanted to see them fight. But I also the idea of creating a business model. It is simply a part of my creative process. I make stuff I want to see. It just so happens there are nerds out there like me who like the same stuff I do. So I hope to serve it up to them too for a little money.


@grantmoore3d. I saw on Fivver a girl will pole dance for you with your message. Great idea for an advertisement.

Last edited by banman7 : 09-06-2013 at 06:22 PM.
 
Old 09-06-2013, 06:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banman7
To each there own but I'm going all out creatively but I find being creative in my business ideas is just as fun and exciting to me.


That's also a good point, I'm also very energized when thinking of ways I could potentially generate revenue. For my "Pole Force One" concept, I'm making a game but have a laundry list of alternative potential revenue streams, each of which excites me just as much as creating the IP itself. I'm an entrepreneur with artistic creativity, best of both world!
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Old 09-06-2013, 07:56 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by grantmoore3d

The romantic ideal of working purely for the artistic pursuit is just silly.


False. Does a person learn an instrument with the sole intention of writing an album to make money off of it? Or does a person learn so that they can play music and enjoy the process? I know some do the former, but they don't last.

In Daniel H. Pink's book "Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us," he cites study after study where tests were carried out where extrinsic rewards (money) and the expectation of earning more of said reward, was introduced to people undertaking problem solving tasks and creative ones. Needless to say, that every time, the money and expectation of more, yielded a negative impact on the work being carried out.

Its not asinine to want to pursue something purely for creative enjoyment. To go into creating an IP with the sole intention of monetization IS asinine, and that was the (admittedly wrong) impression banman7 gave me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by banman7

I'm sorry but too many artists create something only to find 20 people view it or instead of monetizing it they end up losing opportunity they could have cashed in on and now they are working for someone else.



If you do good work, people usually find it, in time. To have only 20 people view it isn't a question of business or money, its to do with luck, timing, patience and marketing. You said "I make stuff I want to see," and to be frank, thats the best approach to doing anything visually creative anyone can adopt. I just found the way of talking about selling ad space and delivering the 'product' as a film, animated comic and comic, less about the creative aspect of telling a good story and more about profit.

Look, you can call me an idealist, you can sling what ever insult my way and think I'm stupid for my 'purist' approach, but I've tried the other approach before and it didn't work. It didn't work for me and it didn't work for my Dad and numerous other artists I know either. Believe me when I say this, but the second I focused on improving my work, making better designs and illustrations (a never ending goal), more people responded to to what I was doing... and I started to earn more.

The truth is, it depends on what you, the creator, values in this life.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:13 PM   #25
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Its not asinine to want to pursue something purely for creative enjoyment. To go into creating an IP with the sole intention of monetization IS asinine, and that was the (admittedly wrong) impression banman7 gave me.


I don't think either one is truly asinine. But if you want to use your creativity to make money but don't plan for it that can be silly. If your joy is simply sheer creation and you love what your doing even if no one will see it that is all good too. I love sketching and there are a ton of sketches no one will ever see doesn't mean I don't sketch though. I do it because it is fun and enjoyable.

Also even if it was just to make money there is nothing wrong with that either. I mean we all have to make money. If you could make money drawing Spiderman all day vs digging a ditch or crunching numbers on some spreadsheet then that is great. More power to the person who can. Honestly if someone gave me some money to make a good mockbuster like Kiara the Brave or Rattattoing I'd do it in a heartbeat vs working fixing copiers all day which I do for a living.

Ya'll need to see that Indie Gamer movie. I highly recommend it. I remember all the blood, sweat and tears the guys put into their games and although they loved the game they knew they also had to make money and the creator of FEZ was even saying he'd have to kill himself if FEZ wasn't a success.

OUCH! Great documentary though.

So my goal is not simply to make money. My main goal is to tell my stories but to make sure I have a plan in place to capitalize on it as much as I can. If it works it just means I get to tell more and more stories that I want to tell and I get to do it without having to work for anyone else. That is the goal. I don't even need to be rich. My goal is just making 1000 USD a month and I get to move to Latin America to live cheaply and a much simpler life by the Ocean and create cool stories. Getting rich probably not going to happen but can I get to that 1,000 a month? I think it is a realistic goal. And boy do I have some stories to tell you!

With everything Balance is needed. I see to many artists who wanted to make a living off their art but got too caught up in the creative aspect without thinking about the business side that they had to even give up art all together because they had to take a job doing something they didn't like that took up their time. So pre-planning is necessary if you WANT to make some money off your art.

IF not then have fun creating as I enjoy watching what you create!

Quote:
Look, you can call me an idealist, you can sling what ever insult my way and think I'm stupid for my 'purist' approach, but I've tried the other approach before and it didn't work. It didn't work for me and it didn't work for my Dad and numerous other artists I know either. Believe me when I say this, but the second I focused on improving my work, making better designs and illustrations (a never ending goal), more people responded to to what I was doing... and I started to earn more.


You gotta find what works for you! Nothing wrong with that. To each their own.

Owe and about the ads in the comic. I think that is part of the creative side as well. I remember as a kid I loved those goofy ads where I could buy instructions on how to make a hovercraft or have xray vision or other goofy stuff I could buy. I think have hand picked ads and make them entertaining can add to the ambiance that you are reading an old school comic. It is additive to the experience. Only additive stuff allowed though.

I'm even down for product placement. If the script calls for the character to be drinking something other than water like he got something out of the vending machine and Coca Cola wanted to pay me to have him drink a Coca Cola then I'm game for that. Now I'm not just going to have him drink a Coca cola just because but if script calls for him drinking and there is an opportunity that doesn't detract from the story I'm all good. I think that is fun and creative and even ads to the story. Now blatant product shot, heck no!

Not like this


So here is a question to the group. Using today's software and techniques could we make something like Delgo for less than 500,000 USD? Or a smaller team make even better for 1/3 of that? And if so could they get it in the theatre?

I know some have been discussing on this forum that weird Space Movie that came out, the "Last Fight of the Champion"

I've been seeing these goofy movies in the redbox lately Monkey Business, Koala Kid, Fish N chips, Nut Crackers, something else about Ants biting or something. I mean how could I get my film in there?

Last edited by banman7 : 09-06-2013 at 11:29 PM.
 
Old 09-06-2013, 11:38 PM   #26
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I will paraphrase a very successful film director at this point:

"The First Value is always to find your audience. Without them all your revenue collecting ideas are nothing. To find your audience means you must love your own material first, it's how you know what kind of people are going to also love what you made."

That's all I have to say on that matter.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:56 PM   #27
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"The First Value is always to find your audience. Without them all your revenue collecting ideas are nothing. To find your audience means you must love your own material first, it's how you know what kind of people are going to also love what you made." That's all I have to say on that matter.


Well said. I agree! Sounds like good words to live by.
 
Old 09-07-2013, 12:07 AM   #28
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All I was saying is that in a thread dedicated to creating intellectual property, it's a little odd to suggest earning revenue should somehow not be a consideration because you personally want a purely artistic pursuit. I have nothing wrong with pursuing art just for the sake of it, but in that case you're just making a project like every other person on this forum. I personally view the focus of this thread to not only support interesting projects, but to help people find ways to earn a living form their work. Comments that suggest otherwise seem a little out of spirit. It's like walking into an entrepreneurship networking event and suggesting everyone not have a business plan, it is asinine in my opinion given the context of the club.

However, very good points on all sides and I'm glad it spurred some interesting debate. I think CGIPadawan pretty much nailed the middle-ground between these two goals.

edit: I think perhaps some of the words I'm choosing to use to make my points are a bit too harsh, I don't mean to offend if you're taking it that way. Just want to be clear and firm on my stance regarding this one because I've seen a great number of people make amazing projects with no plan beyond the art. It's sad when an amazing project never sees the light of day because they get too caught up in what they are creating. However, all business and no passion behind it is equally bad, it's a balance!
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Last edited by grantmoore3d : 09-07-2013 at 12:40 AM.
 
Old 09-07-2013, 08:01 AM   #29
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Well, maybe this is the hill I have chosen to die on and maybe I stand alone in how I am approaching building my IP. I can't remember who said it, but "If you build something wondrous and worthy of comment, people will comment," and the word comment, also means comment with their wallet.

Sam, who is an exceptional programmer, came along and said he just wanted to build this game engine he had in mind and create a game that was like the games he played growing up. He saw my work and asked me if I wanted to set my world in the engine. The opportunity to work with someone of Sam's calibre, on a project that started in my head and is quite a personal one to me, where someone else believes it is worth sinking many hours into it on top of an already full workload, was its own reward. Opportunities like this don't come along often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by banman7
Now blatant product shot, heck no!


All I can think of is the first Sam Raimi Spiderman where he places a Dr. Pepper can in the centre of the shot. I don't think Raimi had much say over that 'creative' choice. People with the money, hold the control, because that money comes with stipulations every time.

Those guys in the "Indie Game: The Movie," yeah, they knew that it was important to make money at the end because they had nothing else to fall back on as their early grants/investments/savings dried up, but their first concern was to make a good game. Over time, it became about making sure the game was a monetary success, but it didn't start that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grantmoore3d
edit: I think perhaps some of the words I'm choosing to use to make my points are a bit too harsh...


Well, maybe I must have ruffled your feathers with my post, which could have come across as dogmatic. But I didn't believe the spirit of the group is in the analogy that you referenced.

My approach to the design and creation of Oni World, was never about money and never will be. It was about the joy of creating it. If I want to make more money, I'll continue to work where I work. Oni World was a release from that and created a balance in my life. Now an opportunity presented itself, and I've decided to take it, come what ever may.
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Old 09-07-2013, 04:26 PM   #30
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@shrunkendesigner - No worries, I think I might have been just having an off day and wasn't in proper frame of mind to express my arguments positively through supportive language.

I guess for myself, it comes to the fact that I personally cannot stand working for someone else in any capacity. It's just soul sucking and feels utterly pointless, it's not something I've ever been happy doing and only do it when there is no other option. However, any time I have freelanced, or started a new business or pursued my own means of earning money in an independent fashion, I am incredibly energized and passionate. It's a part of who I am to pursue these projects in a way which will yield a decent living wage and that itself is a form of creativity. The passion I have is equal to the passion you have, the only difference is that we're on opposite ends of this particular discussion. Perhaps we both need to be less black-and-white? There's lots to learn from our varying perspectives!

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Last edited by grantmoore3d : 09-07-2013 at 04:31 PM.
 
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