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Old 09-02-2013, 06:32 PM   #31
Michael5188
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Michael Sime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
If you want to call that "resistance towards other fields" then go ahead. I call it knowing what I enjoy and sticking with it, because enjoyment of my job is absolutely paramount.


I agree, which is why I'm surprised you're so adamantly in support of what was said about complaints about moving for work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -dc-
So, everyone has a choice to make, in my opinion. You can either adapt to the world around you, move for work if you need to, or find creative ways to stay where you are and not be so hell-bent on doing that particular job you're so used to doing. There's nothing wrong with doing something different to get by, especially if you love where you live.


Of course people don't have to work on features in vfx, but I think it's unfair to to tell people just "adapt" and take on different types of jobs if you want to settle down. I want to continuing doing what I love, but I also don't want to have to leave my loved ones to do so.

I'm no expert on subsidies, and of course it's not the one thing to blame for everything. But I haven't honestly heard a good thing about it for the industry in the long run. Great for short boosts, seems to leave unemployed in its wake. It's not good when an industry relies off a subsidy to be in a location, and that industry is mobile enough to jump ship the second those subsidies stop coming in.

It'd be great if the subsidies ended, and the industry remained there, and our work spread out across the world, but that doesn't seem to be what I see happening. I just see studios moving work where the current best subsidy is, and then people having to follow those studios around. And nobody can compete with a country/location dumping money into studios creating these insane under bids.

But again, I'm no expert and could completely wrong on this. Is London bouncing back right now work wise? Or LA? If so then subsidies might actually be paying off in the end. I really am open to changing my opinion on them.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:04 PM   #32
-dc-
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novakog
I think studios are actually making pretty much the same amount of films they've always made, or slightly more. BoxOfficeMojo as a source. CPI adjusted box office gross I think is slightly lower, but hardly at all, and I'm guessing that the VFX-heavy films take a much much higher share of the total annual gross than they used to. Not that it affects most of the substance of this post.


Studios are making fewer films and choosing to focus on tentpole properties. I would encourage you to read this article:

http://variety.com/2013/digital/new...ent-1200496241/

"Spielberg noted that because so many forms of entertainment are competing for attention, they would rather spend $250 million on a single film than make several personal, quirky projects."

A look at this list shows that a majority of the movies planned are big-budget sequels:

http://www.boxoffice.com/statistics...display_all=yes

I depend directly on the studios for work. The lack of new films being made makes it more competitive among studio side VFX Supervisors and VFX Producers, and we are definitely feeling the squeeze.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:41 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh
Do you really, honestly enjoy your job?

I'm sure a certain amount of fulfillment plays a role here too. Medicin has a direct impact on life and health. Movies are fake and entertaining. Some of the things animators in medicin get out of working with it are some things we as artists could never get, thus being enjoyable at a different level IMO.

Correct me if I'm wrong, sentry66
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:45 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -dc-
there is no sense in getting upset about tax incentives and subsidies, as many have.-dc-



What in the world do you mean there is no sense in getting upset? Like you said yourself the subsidies have artificially accelerated that change leaving many people in its wake wondering what to do. People with houses...families...etc cannot simply up and move to a subsidized location where they are a project hire and then kicked out of the country upon completion of the work.

And they also artificially maintain work in locations that they would not otherwise exist. Not to mention the subsidies themselves are placing a downward price pressure on VFX and artists wages combined. It is a pyramid scheme with no positive endgame.

The vfx industry would be much better off and much more stable if the subsidies didn't exist. Our work would be valued and priced as it should. As it stands now Studios/Producers are becoming accustomed to the discounted price of VFX because of subsidies. It will all come crashing down eventually. In the meantime it forces tons of artists to become even more nomadic then we already were.

Last edited by Maxim_311 : 09-03-2013 at 06:08 AM.
 
Old 09-02-2013, 10:47 PM   #35
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And I wonder what your current view regarding unions and a trade association is currently?

Before trying to out VFX Soldier and getting holy hell for it and vanishing from the internet you had changed your tune about unions it seemed and thought some sort of group representation was a good idea.
 
Old 09-03-2013, 12:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcuso
I'm sure a certain amount of fulfillment plays a role here too. Medicin has a direct impact on life and health. Movies are fake and entertaining. Some of the things animators in medicin get out of working with it are some things we as artists could never get, thus being enjoyable at a different level IMO.

Correct me if I'm wrong, sentry66


That's a huge part of it and there's many different levels of it that come into play. Doing medical animation pretty much means you're part of the education system to some degree, which in turn indirectly impacts people's health and lives.

You create content that goes into medical books, digital atlases, journal articles, websites to inform patients, presentations doctors give to other doctors around the world, educational material for high school athletes about head injuries and concussions, training for nurses, educational TV shows, etc. I've even been directly involved science research where it was discovered that certain long-standing teachings about brain functions were wrong (by a lot) and they needed me to actually create the hard data by measuring 2D and 3D volumes. Other times you have to take really complicated concepts and simplify them down to the point that they can be aired on TV for a medical show so a layperson can understand.

Like all fields I have to admit, not every single piece of work I do is always the most exciting from a sheer technical or artistic CG animation perspective, but ironically those projects end up having some of the largest impacts in the industry so they end up being more fulfilling long after they're done.

Last edited by sentry66 : 09-03-2013 at 12:17 AM.
 
Old 09-03-2013, 12:17 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -dc-
there is no sense in getting upset about tax incentives and subsidies, as many have.

the production companies are using subsidies to remove risk of financing a film. the local governments are convinced they need film jobs by the executives/producers etc. and so they provide the subsidy. but they are rarely compensated in the way they imagined it would, through income tax, sales tax, etc. we have seen this often, a local government realizes that the subsidy doesn't work, it doesn't even break even.

so the way i see it, the middle class in the area are subsidizing rich executives to stay rich. local money should be spent in their interests, such as investing in education, civic maintenance, and other social programs. if some production company wants to make a tent pole film, they should risk their own money. if it does great they should get all the reward and if it doesn't they should lose it all. in my opinion, these film subsidies are just another example of corporate capitalists abusing the middle class.

i should say, i actually don't think subsidies are biggest issue with our industry, but they are certainly a reason to be upset. if awareness was raised about an individual's local governments subsidizing hollywood, i would like to think they would be plenty upset.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:17 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxim_311
What in the world do you mean there is no sense in getting upset? Like you said yourself the subsidies have artificially accelerated that change leaving many people in their wake wondering what to do. People with houses...families...etc cannot simply up and move to a subsidized location where they are a project hire and then kicked out of the country upon completion of the work.

And they also artificially maintain work in locations that they would not otherwise exist. Not to mention the subsidies themselves are placing a downward price pressure on VFX and artists wages combined. It is a pyramid scheme with no positive endgame.

The vfx industry would be much better off and much more stable if the subsidies didn't exist. Our work would be valued and priced as it should. As it stands now Studios/Producers are becoming accustomed to the discounted price of VFX because of subsidies. It will all come crashing down eventually. In the meantime it forces tons of artists to become even more nomadic then we already were.


I think he simply means: "We cannot cry (in the short term) over the things we have no short term control over." If you take up these tax incentives as a cause... you can probably see change in the long term. But I think the OP is talking more about what artists can do in the short term.

The short term is to survive... The long term is to "effect reform". A frank assessment though of the industry in its current state (ie: No VFX Association) means it is wiser (for now) to think about what you can do yourself, than to think too much about things like tax incentives and subsidies.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:25 AM   #39
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One thing that I would really enjoy about working int he game industry or film industry is not having to worry about accuracy or realism, you can just make shit up and go with it.
 
Old 09-03-2013, 12:25 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan
I think he simply means: "We cannot cry (in the short term) over the things we have no short term control over." If you take up these tax incentives as a cause... you can probably see change in the long term. But I think the OP is talking more about what artists can do in the short term.

The short term is to survive... The long term is to "effect reform". A frank assessment though of the industry in its current state (ie: No VFX Association) means it is wiser (for now) to think about what you can do yourself, than to think too much about things like tax incentives and subsidies.



Everything you said is obvious and a given.
You honestly think artists are turning down jobs out of spite?
"I refuse to work in a subsidies location so there!"

Of course not. Artists are obviously doing whatever they can to survive. But the tone of "dont get mad about it" he portrays is the opposite of what you just said about taking note and trying to effect reform. If you're not mad now what makes you think people will be mad later?

Last edited by Maxim_311 : 09-03-2013 at 12:29 AM.
 
Old 09-03-2013, 12:31 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxim_311
Everything you said is obvious and a given.
You honestly thing artists are turning down jobs out of spite? "I refuse to work in a subsidies location so there!"

Of course not. Artists are obviously doing whatever they can to survive. But the tone of "dont get mad about it" he portrays is the opposite of what you just said about taking note and trying to effect reform. If you're not mad now what makes you think people will be mad later?


You can seek reform without being angry. But that would be the extent to which I'd advise it because it doesn't conform to my experience.

I live in a country where we cannot count on any kind of incentive/subsidy for anything - period. So between you and me, there will be a gap in understanding.

My take of it was "He's probably adopting our mindset"... Where I live you solve your own problems, get together with peers and solve the problems you have in common.

Nobody calls the government around here.

P.S.: Which is why I linked the OP's statement to the IP Incubator cause of Roberto and the "free the entertainment" cause of David Fincher and Kevin Spacey. Where I live that would be the solution .
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Last edited by CGIPadawan : 09-03-2013 at 12:38 AM.
 
Old 09-03-2013, 12:43 AM   #42
Maxim_311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan
Nobody calls the government around here.


Nobody is saying to call the government for help.
Most VFX artists I know would prefer if the government stayed out of the movie making/subsidy business all together.

If they did things in the VFX industry would be much better/stable.
 
Old 09-03-2013, 12:49 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxim_311
Nobody is saying to call the government for help.
Most VFX artists I know would prefer if the government stayed out of the movie making/subsidy business all together.

If they did things in the VFX industry would be much better/stable.


Well my only advice... which is the same one I give out all the time at my day job.... is

Work out two solutions: One in the short term, one in the long term.

Think of what you can do immediately to make things better, and have an eye to the other thing you build up towards.

You know your specific situation better than anyone... but whatever you do.. .Don't get angry. Or if you do... it's generally not a good idea to stay angry.

You can be pissed off at all the government intervention, but no amount of getting angry is going to undo all that vested interest/economic interest that is driving these Incentives/Subsidies.
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Old 09-03-2013, 01:00 AM   #44
Maxim_311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGIPadawan
Well my only advice... which is the same one I give out all the time at my day job.... is

Work out two solutions: One in the short term, one in the long term.

Think of what you can do immediately to make things better, and have an eye to the other thing you build up towards.

You know your specific situation better than anyone... but whatever you do.. .Don't get angry. Or if you do... it's generally not a good idea to stay angry.

You can be pissed off at all the government intervention, but no amount of getting angry is going to undo all that vested interest/economic interest that is driving these Incentives/Subsidies.


For sure...nobody is foaming at the mouth.

Its a controlled anger
 
Old 09-03-2013, 03:07 PM   #45
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This post has always been a guide for me when I started, when I was working, and now that I've moved on to start my own business. Thanks for your excellent points. One of them should be highlighted however:


Quote:
The one thing I would advise now more than ever is to avoid overpaying for education. The cost of education has gone up faster than the wages that can be earned in computer graphics. Self-education has become more important than ever. There are good programs out there, and at a reasonable cost, so look to those approaches first. Online classes, in my opinion, are one of the best ways to learn right now.


I've learned more on the job and quickly through Digital Tutors then my four years in school. I do admit: School gave me a place to meet people and refine my artistic eye and for that I am always thankful. I just wish I would have done it cheaper (which I could have.)

 
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