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Old 07-06-2013, 12:16 AM   #31
malcolmvexxed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danshewan
It's obvious that they do - frequently - but that doesn't mean this behavior should be expected, or worse, subsidized by backers who put money into Project A and then told more money is needed to realize Project B. That's not what they put their money behind, no matter how cool the end product may be.

The "kid in a candy store" mentality that seems to have been the driving force behind Broken Age's design process isn't something consumers should "get used to" or expect from any Kickstarter project, let alone one from a well-established studio like Double Fine.

It's a damn shame, because the project will probably turn out pretty well, but it sets a dangerous precedent for crowdfunded games and casts a dim light on a legitimate source of funds for developers who can deliver the game they promised without going crazy when goals are exceeded.


Lol ok but you say it's unfair for me to paint creatives in that light by saying that it's "normal". then you agree with me that it frequently happens. I agree it's unprofessional, if nothing else maybe the public having direct access to the process will force creatives to do things differently (although public pressure didn't make Travis Charest finish Metabarons after 7 years etc.).

I'm seeing gamers say they won't back kickstarters again, I hope that's just them being upset that the game is going to be 2+ years late (now that I say that out loud it sounds awful).
 
Old 07-06-2013, 01:01 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danshewan
It's obvious that they do - frequently - but that doesn't mean this behavior should be expected, or worse, subsidized by backers who put money into Project A and then told more money is needed to realize Project B. That's not what they put their money behind, no matter how cool the end product may be.


Footnote: Might be interesting to note that the above event has occurred also in a AAA situation. Gearbox Software's fiasco involving the diversion of SEGA funding for "Aliens: Colonial Marines" into "Borderlands 2" is a case that is still rolling on.

Just saying it's not the crowdfunding medium per se that is responsible - Things like this are a "People Problem".
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Old 07-06-2013, 01:03 AM   #33
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Is that the same game where they fabricated CG gameplay footage to make it look better than it was?
 
Old 07-06-2013, 01:27 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmvexxed
Is that the same game where they fabricated CG gameplay footage to make it look better than it was?


It's a bit more complicated than that. This isn't like that KILLZONE video fiasco. Basically SEGA contracted Gearbox to make "ALIENS: Colonial Marines". At the time Gearbox was really sort of coming off "Borderlands" and wanted to tie up with larger properties to get the cash rolling.

Hence, SEGA, hence, ALIENS.

And then "Borderlands" became a success.

Gearbox then felt that Borderlands was its OWN big property.. the one it had been waiting for the whole time. But now they were saddled with ALIENS.

Gearbox had launched a demo that was pretty good. Not a video.. a working demo which was what the world saw as initial publicity for ALIENS: Colonial Marines.

But, this is where sources start to argue. At some point Gearbox decided it wanted to focus on "Borderlands 2" and TimeGate ended up being sub-contracted to doing ALIENS.

From what I could gather or infer, it seems the SEGA contract was very loose.. .it only required Gearbox to keep showing updates.. but not specifically working copies. So they saw images, videos, screencaps. The contract probably allowed for sub-contracting.. or maybe it contained the usual "Your Sub-contractors are your responsibility" clause.

It seemed there were no clauses about strict delivery or Quality Acceptance requirements.

It went on and on and on... but at some point SEGA started wondering what was happening to the game and their money.

When ALIENS finally hit shelves it was nothing like the demo Gearbox had made.. and TimeGate's name was added to the game. The sequences that were in the demo were there geometrically and in terms of motion, but countless FX and lighting - everything didn't look the same beyond that.

The Wii-U version for ALIENS got cancelled outright. And the nagging question is "If this is what the game looks like... where did SEGA's money go?"

Last I heard of the story, SEGA was investigating the possibility that their money was diverted to Borderlands 2... which is a good possibility....

If proven... SEGA will definitely sue... but trying to open Gearbox's books and make sense out of what entries are for which things is going to be very very hard.

Oh and Indies can do this better.. because they may not have any books to begin with!
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Old 07-06-2013, 01:35 AM   #35
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Very interesting story, that seems clearly fraudulent but not sure how in the world they'd prove it.
 
Old 07-06-2013, 07:29 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildjj
Would your experience put you off backing them again? I mean, most people wouldn't want to risk putting a hand into the fire and getting burned twice.


Not at all. Look at all of the fantastic kickstarter projects that are really pulling their weight with their budgets. Wasteland 2, Numenera, Project Eternity, FTL...I'm not going to stop doing something that allows these artists to create games that I want to play just because of one project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmvexxed
Are you saying that movie, music, comic and video game projects don't go over budget and miss deadlines/benchmarks all the time? Creative people are often terrible at follow through in a timely fashion, I don't think that's a secret. WWZ just spent an extra 120m re-shooting their third act. Agreed about them not spending like a real indie project although I think the game looks excellent and I'm a fan of schaffers work.


Not at all, but this isn't just a small mark. It's 800% more than was originally needed, with 25% of the game complete. That means that the budget will be almost 3200% higher than what was previously estimated. That's not normal for game development, and the people saying that it is are making creative people look completely incompetent. Which, the vast majority aren't.

Using the WWZ analogy, that's taking the budget from $190 million and ending up with a cost of $ 608 BILLION.

There must have been a point before they ran out of money where they realized this was going to happen-and instead of trying to adjust the game, roll with the punches, and readjust what they were doing, they just plunged forward and hoped for the best.

I have no doubt that the game will come out, and will be an awesome game. But to pass this off as 'oh well, this is just the creative process' is doing a massive disservice to artists who actually can manage finances, and don't toil around with money like its pouring from an open well.
 
Old 07-06-2013, 08:25 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke
Not at all, but this isn't just a small mark. It's 800% more than was originally needed, with 25% of the game complete. That means that the budget will be almost 3200% higher than what was previously estimated. That's not normal for game development, and the people saying that it is are making creative people look completely incompetent. Which, the vast majority aren't.

Using the WWZ analogy, that's taking the budget from $190 million and ending up with a cost of $ 608 BILLION.

There must have been a point before they ran out of money where they realized this was going to happen-and instead of trying to adjust the game, roll with the punches, and readjust what they were doing, they just plunged forward and hoped for the best.

I have no doubt that the game will come out, and will be an awesome game. But to pass this off as 'oh well, this is just the creative process' is doing a massive disservice to artists who actually can manage finances, and don't toil around with money like its pouring from an open well.

That would be 25% of the new game, not the game that the original budget was for. I can point to tons of other projects in general that have similar problems - or if you want another kickstarted game having similar problems.. I'm a big fan of Adam Phillips' animation but AFAIK his game still isn't done 2 years later due to lack of financing and sketchbooks hadn't even been sent out last time I checked in on it. I can also point to who knows how many instances in all categories that show just how bad artists and musicians are with managing finances but there isn't enough room on the internet.
 
Old 07-06-2013, 09:24 AM   #38
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But that just means that instead of making a game that was 800% bigger, they are making a game that's 4x larger than the largest game they could have made with that budget.

My point is that this isn't a normal situation. It's NOT normal for creative projects to balloon this far from its original scope, and it shouldn't be fobbed off as 'that's just how things get done in the creative industry'.
 
Old 07-06-2013, 09:24 AM   #39
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